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Need Recommendations for Benefical External Auditing Training

Discussion in 'Training - Internal, External and Web-Based' started by Nikki, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. Nikki

    Nikki Well-Known Member

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    Hello All -

    I am looking for recommendations on good training seminars / courses for conducting external audits.

    Our company has grown to the point where we will soon be auditing our suppliers and sub-contractors.

    About 5 years ago, I took a 4 day training seminar for Lead Auditor Training through SAI Global in Georgia. I enjoyed the training, although I think I need something based more on external auditing rather than internal - as this is how it was based.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Recommendations?

    I would also be interested in hearing suggestions on Risk Analysis Training that is available as well.

    Thank you in advance.

    -Nikki
     
  2. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    AIAG has a training course for conducting supplier audits based on TS16949. Although very intensive it is actually very good. The training is delivered by Plexus. Hope this helps.
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The Lead Auditor course is SPECIFICALLY for external auditors. Why do you think it is for internal auditors? If you look at the SAI Global blurb about the course (I used to teach it or its forerunner) it states it's for supplier auditors etc...
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    For automotive people, I might agree - but you'll have your head filled with all kinds of stuff which isn't applicable to the vanilla "ISO" world, otherwise...
     
  5. Nikki

    Nikki Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm.... The instructor spoke of it being internal audit based several times. It was a number of years ago... maybe I am confusing the actual title of the training....
     
  6. Nikki

    Nikki Well-Known Member

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    We are in the medical plastics compounding business...
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Weeeellll, some of SAI's instructors would take a look at the people in the room and ask if any were going to do external audits (many times no-one was there for that purpose) and make the case studies etc into an "internal audit" instead - except the materials really don't support that idea. But whatever, you went through an external audit case study, despite what it was named! Trust me!
     
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  8. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    I wonder if you heard the word 'internal' because the majority of the participants are there to learn how to conduct auditors within their own organizations. The language might have been tailored so that the participants could mentally apply to themselves.
     
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  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Interesting thought, RB! Are you thinking they are acting as guides for the external auditors?
     
  10. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    LOL!! I agree. This course is heavy duty for the "ISO" folks. However, it is the real process auditing kind of stuff.
     
  11. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really...when I took my lead auditor course, the majority of the participants were from local organizations and responsible for either implementing the QMS, being the Management Rep (and they wanted to be able to speak the language of auditors) or they were heading up the audit programme within their organization.
     
  12. Rich008

    Rich008 Member

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    Hi Nikki, I a big fan of the German VDA 6.3 Process audit
    The training is done around the world https://www.industryforum.co.uk/resources/articles/vda-6-3-process-audit/
    As it says "VDA 6.3 is an excellent tool for process audits within the automotive industry acting as a guideline for performing audits. It provides information on the significance and application scope of a process audit over the entire product realization cycle in both manufacturing and services It defines the audit process, the criteria for evaluation of the process audit results and the requirements of the processes. At the heart of the standard, each step in the process is modelled with six links and is governed by the Deming Loop – Plan Do Check Act. There are three grades that an organisation can reach under VDA 6.3 – A, B & C. This means that an organisation can pass the audit but still have scope for further improvement."

    I did the training over a year ago and it was a big WOW "Light Bulb" moment for me... why oh why this is not being used by everyone I don't know.

    Have a read up on it. More and more none automotive businesses are starting to use this system.
     
  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd say it's good if you are in the business of affording to do supplier development... Bearing in mind that the UK market is much more mature with its use of ISO and certification than the USA, in many respects, it might come across as very heavy handed. Scores would be low and you'd be under some obligation to assist the supplier get to where you want them to be. Most organizations don't have the SQA resources to develop suppliers and the geography of the USA makes it extremely expensive, too. I can't get out of Michigan in 3 hours (westwards) but in the UK (forgetting traffic for a moment) 3 hours takes you a good way between London and Manchester. Don't forget, that VDA is based on the old guidance (ISO 9004) but brought up to date around TS 16949. See this: https://www.industryforum.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2014/02/VDA-webinar-01.04.13..pdf

    From a look at the questions, you'd have to have suppliers agree and commit (which means you'll give them business) to even do much of what's in the checklist...
     
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  14. Rich008

    Rich008 Member

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    True Andy, in Europe we can get very fat in 3hrs... further in Germany with no speed limits;)
    I did audits in NY and Japan too... but all because of business with VW.

    When you have critical suppliers, VDA is what I recommend and more so when they are not in your country.
     
  15. Nikki

    Nikki Well-Known Member

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    Revisiting this thread... Any suggestions for a good "Supplier Auditing" course? I haven't found much online except a course in the UK, which unfortunately, I am sure my boss will not want to foot the bill for ;)
     
  16. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The Lead Auditor course is specifically for that, really, Nikki. Despite what some will tell you, the original intent of being a LA was FOR supplier audits. What do you think you need? More experience? Coaching?
     
  17. Nikki

    Nikki Well-Known Member

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    I think I need something that is less geared towards quality management system auditing. And more process related... the Lead Auditor training I took was so focused on the clauses of the standard that I feel the true act of auditing was lost...
     
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  18. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not surprised to learn that! Some instructors have forgotten the reason the course exists!
     
  19. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    If you can't find a course on the subject, Nikki, I'm sure you've plenty of people here who can help coach and guide. I had to learn process auditing on my own, but thankfully had two really good external auditors to help me along.

    One of the easiest ways I started was to go out into the area where final product was about to shipped. It was on the truck and the driver was about to leave. I pulled a few product numbers from that load and followed the process backwards. From shipping to warehousing to QC sign-off to manufacturing to raw materials and purchasing to sales...and all the supportive processes that touched them. I used our own internal documentation as the requirements and if no documentation existed, I looked for consistency between operators and stakeholders.
     
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  20. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed, Roxanne. I'd also advise Nikki that being able to process audit is somewhat separate from supplier auditing. One may, however, be a way to accomplish the other, but not all supplier audits are process based.
     

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