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IATF Calibration Question

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Marty Keenan, Aug 31, 2020.

  1. Marty Keenan

    Marty Keenan Member

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    I have been out of the Quality game for a few years and not so up to speed with IATF 16949. Do rulers (standard 12 inch metal ruler) and scales (measure weight) need to be calibrated? Please explain why you answered yes or no so I can better understand.
    If they do require calibration, how does one complete those?
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Marty and welcome!

    This is a hoary old question and the answer is NOTHING needs calibration, because you have the option for verification and, usually, steel rules fall into this category. That said, it's important to understand what your people are using them for. Since a steel rule isn't much for accuracy unless viewed with an eyeglass or loupe, you're likely using something else to make dimensional decisions.
     
  3. Marty Keenan

    Marty Keenan Member

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    Thank you for that information. Based on that answer, I will simply indicate in our Procedure that measuring tapes are reference only and will not be used as final validation for part measurement. With this being said, I am still not sure if the metal scales (rulers) need to be calibrated. We deal with die cut parts with very generous tolerances. The floor people could easily use a metal scale to verify an overall length of a part that is 100mm plus or minus 5mm. I assume these scales would have to be calibrated.
    You mentioned "the option for verification", which I did not understand.
     
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  4. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Good day @Marty Keenan '
    @Andy Nichols has given wise council.

    At the risk of being "that guy" please allow me to discuss a terminology difference that, in the IATF world, is more than just semantics.

    "Validation" is generally associated with design. i.e. determine that the product performs its intended function.
    "Verification" is the correct word in this instance, as it simply means to verify/confirm that what you believe to be true, is true. i.e. you believe that a micrometer will read 1" when verifying it against a 1" block.

    Hope this helps.

    Be well.
     
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, Marty, die cut parts are probably best checked to a mylar with the size/shape produced on it, showing the upper and lower tolerance limits. That would help you since in realty, die cut parts rarely "move", they are - in my experience - more of a shape issue. Also, as @John C. Abnet says, verifying is a fancy word for checking, which in this case is most appropriate.
     
  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    As for calibration, you can use reference only markings. Weight scales can be an issue -- ours are calibrated by the manufacture in accordance with state/city weights and measures rules. Auditors don't like it because it's not a "lab." We verify before use anyway. As an aside, be careful. Anything that shows up on a control plan will need an MSA. Good luck.
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Could you explain what this means?
     
  8. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Only if you don't look at results...or cost!
     
  10. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what is says -- gage says it's for reference only.
     
  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Why would anyone want to "reference" a gauge? And why "only"?
     
  12. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Why not. We do that for scales/rulers. They don't change and we simply measure the width of a coil strip -- precision isn't required. Or the caliper on my desk -- used for a quick eyeball reference check. If you don't have a "for reference only" sticker on it, people freak out.
     
  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    But that's not an answer to my question(s)...
     
  14. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    your're questions are irrelevant. we do what we do. We don't feel the need to put everything thru a detailed calibration and/or verification.
     
  15. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks! I'm asking for the people who come here to read, learn but never post. Simply dismissing my questions, seeking clarification, does a dis-service to those who wish to learn, which is what this forum is about. A post which simply says "it is what it is" isn't a lot of help, really.
     
  16. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    You can provide your comments without asking questions. A question like "Why would anyone want to "reference" a gauge? And why "only"?" doesn't even make sense. The quality world knows what "reference only" means with regard to a gage. If someone doesn't, they can ask.
     
  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    OK, let me ask you this. Why put "Reference Only" on a gauge? I've been in the Quality World for 40 years. Testing labs and Manufacturing. Different countries. I'm asking because I don't know. Please help me understand.
     
  18. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    The question I believe everyone is asking is, what is the purpose of the gage and the labor that is doing the gaging?

    Gages, as with documents, fall under what I have coined as the "WRONG or GONE principle". i.e. ...
    * if the gage or document, is WRONG, is there a risk that it can contribute to a nonconformity?
    * If the gage or document is GONE, is there a risk that it can contribute to a nonconformity?

    If the answer is yes, then the proper controls need to be put into place.

    If the answer is no, then the question begs, what is the purpose of creating/having "it" or performing "that"?

    It is surprising how often I ask that question regarding a gage or document identified as "reference only", and the client is obligated to answer "yes" and then immediately becomes self aware of what needs to be done. I don't need to tell them.

    Food for thought.


    Hope this helps.
    Be well.
     
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  19. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I like that!
     
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  20. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    Late response on my part:

    It costs me more to argue than it does to calibrate...(my time arguing, and risk of degrading trust with a customer vs. $100...math is easy in my world.)
     

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