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How many People work for your company

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Jamie Lill, Mar 17, 2016.

  1. Jamie Lill

    Jamie Lill Member

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    Its seems a lot of the ideas presented would solve a lot of the situations,but how much time is spent on ISO when your company is 5 people.
    Do you have time to do a gap analysis or risk chart. The answer is no!. You are to busy doing your job.
    Also CA do not work 100% of the time. EG Order desk personal reverse numbers for customers faxed in order. They make a mistake. Root cause find outs all order desk personal reverse numbers time to time.
    How do you fix this. We have implemented highlighters to check what was entered, have somebody else check you work(never get the order out as everybody else is busy).
    Then iso says we have to make a corrective action. I thought a corrective action was to work the first time by getting to the root cause. If the root cause cannot be fixed then the corrective action is useless
     
  2. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, ISO in a small company is easier. There is much less to manage, so your systems can be less complex. Once you know the standard, you can do a gap analysis or risk chart in your head because you work in it everyday.

    As with anything there is a law of diminishing returns. The real question is how often is order desk personal reversing numbers? If it is once a year on a low value order, then no harm, no foul. If it is every week, costing $1000s in time to correct, then implementation of a root cause and corrective action become more worthwhile.
     
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  3. MarkMeer

    MarkMeer Well-Known Member

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    True. ...but it also has unique challenges, as everyone is likely multi-tasking, so positions and responsibilities can be difficult to lock-down.

    "Your job" presumably entails developing and managing QMS processes though, right?
    This is the challenge of working in a small company, but also one of the greatest benefits - you "wear a lot of hats".

    If, in the present state, there are insufficient resources (personnel) to deal with tasks necessary for the health of the QMS, this may be an indication that the system is over-burdened. It either needs to be made more efficient, or more dedicated personnel is necessary.

    It's ok if corrective actions don't work 100% of the time. Nobody is expecting them to. The important thing is that you've documented your decisions and rationales.
    One critical step is the decision to initiate investigation and corrective action. Not all incidents/problems warrant these actions. As Golfman25 points out: it's up to you do make this decision and document it.

    It may be as simple as a table to log these types of incidents, your risk-assessment, and CA decision all in one place. Example:

    || Date || Incident || Impact Assessment || Remedial Action || Investigation / Corrective Action Decision ||
    |
    yyyy-mm-dd | (name) incorrectly entered data in (record) | No impact on safety. Customer order may be delayed in worst case. | Record data has been corrected | No further investigation or CA necessary at this time |
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
  4. Claes Gefvenberg

    Claes Gefvenberg Moderator Staff Member

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    This is a good time to point out something important in the standard: The system is supposed to be adapted to the needs of the organisation, and as in ISO 9001:2008, the key can be found in a NOTE, rather than in a requirement. In this case under clause 7.5.1:
    So... five people can probably manage with a really lean system. At any rate it should aid you, not be a burden to you.
     
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  5. Jamie Lill

    Jamie Lill Member

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    The definition from ISO Corrective actions are steps that are taken to eliminate
    the causes of existing nonconformities in order to prevent
    recurrence. The corrective action process tries to make
    sure that existing nonconformities and potentially
    undesirable situations don’t happen again.

    To prevent recurrence. If it keeps happening the the corrective action does not work, and failures recur.Not all failures can be delt with ISO.
    Show me how order desk personal who mix numbers 4 times a year, up can be fixed by a corrective action.
    Unless somebody has other ideas
     
  6. Candi1024

    Candi1024 Well-Known Member

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    Well there are other ways to keep it from happening. The purchaser could send a verification email or fax. You can stop taking orders over fax. ect.

    But at 4 mistakes a year, depending on the cost of those mistakes, it would be totally reasonable to do a risk analysis. The risk would be considered low because of the low level of loses and the frequency. Therefore you would document that no corrective action is needed. Maybe even set a goal, less than 5 a year and track that as a measurable.
     
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  7. Jamie Lill

    Jamie Lill Member

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    This has been done.
    Its my point that a corrective action does not work as ISO states
     
  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    That's just flat out not true. I could give you several corrective actions. However, many will be cost prohibitive for a once in a while situation.

    A simple check and verification by another person could help.
    You could program software to "double check" the order.
    You could figure out why the person continues to transpose numbers (ie; dyslexia) and get training/support to improve that condition.
    If the person is overworked, you could hire more people.
    You can hire "better" people.
    Etc.

    But the real question is, do you really have a problem?
     
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  9. Jamie Lill

    Jamie Lill Member

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    Ok,
    I have had other people check and mistakes are still made
    Software ????
    Were do you get training for dyslexia?
    Overworked no.
    Better people that what

    Its just does not work for all applications and people need to understand that.
     
  10. Candi1024

    Candi1024 Well-Known Member

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    More like it is not required for all situations, and people need to understand that.

    Maybe eliminate numbers? Maybe go to all online ordering? Maybe go to only voice orders? I wouldn't bother with any of that though.

    I wonder how often Amazon mixes up numbers?
     
  11. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    ISO 9001 is not a 'tool' in the sense that it provides answers or solutions. It is a 'pegboard' where you hang your own tools to accomplish your business purposes. You may use 5-W or 8-D tools, that is up to you. It is also up to you to see if they are effective. As others have pointed out, the problem can be solved a number of ways, but they may not all be cost-effective or practical. Your company decides how effective this needs to be by the importance to the company.
     
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  12. Jamie Lill

    Jamie Lill Member

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    Thanks for the reply's but it seems everybody has there own definitions not the official one
     
  13. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    As the saying goes, "show me the shall" were ISO days we have to make a corrective action. It's not there.
     
  14. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    This seems to be be the pivotal misunderstanding....where, exactly, does ISO say you have to make a corrective action?

    The pertinent question is not "How to Fix?", but "Is it worth trying to fix?"
    For a 5 person company with 4 issues per person per year...it may not be worth the effort....or it may...that's up to your company, not ISO.
     
  15. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    It seems to me there's a fundamental misunderstanding about "time spent doing ISO".

    Who said you have to do a root cause for an error? Why have you now got checking by someone else. I believe you have an incorrect understanding of a) what ISO 9001 requires you to do and b) what is effective.

    Where did you get your basic education on the ISO 9001 requirements? Have you actually sat down and read the standard?
     
  16. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    What "official" answer are you seeking? Maybe ISO 9000 has that? Or are you seeking the answer which simply fits your ideas on the topic? We understand that people ask questions, but the answers are sometimes not what they would prefer to hear. It's your choice to take our collective wisdom.
     
  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yet millions of other people who are implementing ISO 9001 are not finding the same thing! In fact, there have been only minor changes since the 1987 version came out.
    If dyslexia is a problem for people who need to be numerate etc, then you should test for that - you can't "train" it out of people.

    If you need better people, (whatever THAT is) maybe your hiring practices need corrective action? Are you sure the process isn't broken?
     
  18. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is "the official one"? please supply the reference that makes it "official".
    Last I checked, the only "official" interpretation is that given by your CB...and even that only lasts until you challenge it ;)
     
  19. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Noooooooooo! Heaven preserve us! The ONLY official "interpretation" is that of TC 176.
     
  20. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    You nailed it when you said "...only lasts until you challenge it" but even then, the CB auditor's organization is also under the oversight of (I hope) an accrediting body recognized by the IAF. We cannot, or should not be allowed to go about willy-nilly interpreting things on our own. That is why it is so helpful to have the Technical Committee's Home Page with its guidance documents.
     
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