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How do you interpret this phrase in the standard?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by claudiogut, Sep 7, 2023.

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  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Since we have no way to know the content of the comment, how do you know? I have witnessed many "throw-away" comments by CAB auditors who felt they were "being helpful", when in fact, they threw the organization for a loop. As I mentioned, those with a very narrow experience of 3rd party audits don't experience the carnage from the "wheel spinning" such unqualified, off-the-cuff comments can cause. After all - and I believe you've commented similarly - people "go along" with the auditor because it's the path of least resistance, for an "easy life". Implementing effective Quality Management is distinctly different to appeasing an auditor in attempts to avoid audit non-conformities. If organizations chose to waste their money doing that, fine, but that's NOT what QMS implementation is about.

    I find it a paradox that (qualified) wisdom is shared in these - and other forums - yet is is rarely defended as acceptable as vigorously as unqualified comments from some CAB auditors... Such is the human condition, I understand.
     
    Andy Nichols, Sep 11, 2023
    #21
  2. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously we are speaking in general terms, as neither you nor I where there to actually hear the comments. But I do give companies and their employees a little credit in their ability to think critically and make the determinations that will benefit them. They certainly have the ability to ignore the auditor's comments or take a look and confirm that have the issue covered.
     
    Golfman25, Sep 12, 2023
    #22
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I wasn't! I was very specific.
     
    Andy Nichols, Sep 12, 2023
    #23
  4. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    You win. Geeze.
     
    Golfman25, Sep 12, 2023
    #24
  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    The standard requires to retain appropriate documented information as "evidence of competence". If we replace the word competence with its definition, then we have "evidence of ability to apply knowledge and skills to achieve intended results". The definition of competence is result-oriented. Training is just one of the means to acquire the knowledge and skills. If I will claim that I'm a good cook should I demonstrate my competence by showing my records of training or would you rather taste the food I cooked?
     
    tony s, Oct 7, 2023
    #25
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    ^^^^^ what Tony said
     
    Andy Nichols, Oct 7, 2023
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  7. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    I'll be shamelessly stealing this cook/food analogy.
     
    John C. Abnet, Oct 9, 2023
    #27
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  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    I would rather know you're competent before I ate your food. :)
     
    Golfman25, Oct 10, 2023
    #28
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  9. BradM

    BradM Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey all!! I have always wondered how some of the language gets put together in those standards. :) To me what that note is saying is that the actionable things a company can do is to assure that their employees are competently trained or you obtain the competently trained help. So if you have a process with critical welds, you assure employees (at a minimum) have the appropriate certifications, or you contract with a welding company who have certified (and experienced) welders. So, assure the needed competency inhouse or go out and get it.
     
    BradM, Oct 11, 2023
    #29
  10. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    If after eating my food, and find them unpalatable, would you still hold on to the "evidence of competence" that you have established prior to tasting my food? ;)
     
    tony s, Oct 13, 2023
    #30
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