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Are our outsourcing organizations and suppliers must ISO 9001 certified?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by jaltangerel, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. jaltangerel

    jaltangerel Member

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    Good day everyone!
    Are our outsourcing organizations and suppliers must ISO 9001 certified? if we are ISO 9001 implemented and certified?
     
  2. Artem

    Artem Member

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    There is no such requirement. You need only to exercise control over them. One way of controlling MAY be that YOU require them to get certified.
    One thing may only be that YOUR customer requires YOU to cooperate only with certified suppliers. Make sure this is not agreed somewhere in your contracts or agreements with your customers
     
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    ISO 9001 isn't a form of control, clearly. If you don't want to deal with supplier development - helping them to understand process controls etc - then make ISO 9001 a requirement. If you are OK with dealing with suppliers who are cheap and unsophisticated, the risk to your organization is low, then don't bother. Your call.
     
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  4. Artem

    Artem Member

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    Some things to consider:
    - you can exercise control in any form. Be it sneaking into LinkedIn profiles of suppliers employers or making sure that they have an ISO 9001 system at place
    - not all companies even with high risks coming from suppliers actually CAN develop them. Let’s say you are a printing company of 200 employees buying chemicals from a 20 000 employees chemical concern. Good luck in developing them :)
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Always willing to learn. Can you explain how these controls work?
     
  6. Artem

    Artem Member

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    Always willing to help :)
    Basically this is as easy as with any control. You set a criteria (have an iso 9001 certified qms) and make sure this criteria is fulfilled („send me your certificates once in 3 years“). Who does not pass control - bears consequences
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    With respect, this is NOT control. As many know, (some) ISO 9001 certified companies don't deliver to customer needs! Certification is based on audits, which are - by their very nature - samples. A lot can happen between annual audits. Certification doesn't "control" anything.
     
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  8. Artem

    Artem Member

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    Is control not made by sampling in principle? An audit is a control mechanism. And you entrust this mechanism first of all to certified suppliers (who need to have internal audits). And you entrust checking/Controlling of the system to an accredited certification body. And then you take sampling from time to time on who of your suppliers still have certificates (we all know that in practice loosing a certificate is next to impossible, but if we want to be consequent...). If you say to a supplier „please deliver me nails with 3mm diameter and tolerance +-0,1mm“ and „be iso 9001 certified“ in both cases you will demand evidenced (control) them. As nail production is a daily business you will be sampling often. While certification is a one time activity - you sample one time on the results :)
     
  9. jaltangerel

    jaltangerel Member

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  10. judegu

    judegu Active Member

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    @Artem

    Hi Artem. ISO 9001 is a good way to control in theory. However based on my experience, getting certified doesn`t mean the specific product will always conform to the requirement. In the real life, regarding the external provider control, it is more practical to focus on the perfomance monitoring, right? Just requiring the ISO 9001 certified seems to be insufficient.
     
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  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Artem: The purpose (uniquely) of ISO 9001 Certification is to attest that an organization has a QMS which complies with the ISO standard. All this means is, the organization doesn't need to be "developed" by the customer and they don't have to comply with (many) customer specific quality system requirements. Certification is and was never intended as a "control". Audits are NOT controls they are part of the "assurance" or confidence gaining by management (organization or customer). If you rely on audits to control, you will be in trouble.
     
  12. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Good day @Artem ;
    I would respectfully disagree with the analogy of a "200 employee...from a 20,000 employee.." (i.e. BIG fish vs small fish example.).

    I worked for a company of 45 employees, (more importantly, $20million/annual sales) and spent considerable time on-site at billion dollar + steel mills developing their process. It all has to do with the approach. If you build strong relationships FIRST, are an expert in your field and can gracefully demonstrate that, then you may even find (happened to me), that they will ASK you to come on site and work with their teams and processes.

    "Never lead with a stick"

    Be well
     
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  13. Artem

    Artem Member

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    Following your logic - sampling and measurement of produced goods is not a control - it is a confidence gaining for a production manager and assurance that the Shopfloor makes a good job. But we both know that samples taking and measuring is control right? And it results in a measurements report. Basically certifying that a batch produced fulfills the requirements
    Audit is a sampling of processes functionally . It’s result is a paper called a certificate. What is the difference in controls?
    Now, I rely on sampling by a certification body of my suppliers processes and have only one control point - absence or presence of a certificate.
     
  14. Artem

    Artem Member

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    Oh this is for sure - I never claimed it to be sufficient, did I :) I am a great fan of iso 9001 as a standard, but I am great opponent of certification and all certification bodies
     
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  15. Artem

    Artem Member

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    Well I definitely like the discussion around this post :)
    What shall I answer to you? As you gave a „stick“ saying at the end of your answer I would need to give mine at the beginning. And it is „Mever make rules based on exclusions“
    I am sure you understood me correctly about the 200 and 20000 comparison. AS A RULE, the proportion between the size and importance is quite direct, right? Absolutely AS AN EXCLUSION there are companies with 20 people and 20 robots who provide large turnover with a huge corporation. But this is out of normal statistical spread would you agree? As well as it is exclusive luck to an employer and a supplier to get in touch with some real „diamond“ that will inspire them so much that they will cooperate gladly. Which is again an exclusion. Which you can not use to justify rules
     
  16. judegu

    judegu Active Member

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    To some degree, me too. Standards are good things. However in my experience (I admit that my experience is also insufficient;)), the auditors from CB (B**, the only CB which I have INDIRECT contact with) didn`t leave me a perfect impression. They seem to not want to dig in in any direction during audit. It looks like that Everyone is good with everyone is their hidden slogan.:rolleyes:

    The certification body you are talking about is contracted with you, right? If the suppliers are paying it, there is a great chance that it will not stay impartial.
     
  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't confuse certification with implementing an ISO 9001 QMS, however...
     
  18. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    No requirement in ISO 9001:2015. If a CB impose it, the CB is out of line.
     
  19. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    This is, frankly, an old and worn-out viewpoint. When you look at the results of CB audits, it's very clear that not only are they being impartial, they aren't auditing anything anyone really cares about, for the most part. If it was so corrupt, it wouldn't have lasted 30 years. And, what's the alternative? Supplier audits have proven to be pretty useless for many. Anyone who spends time around here and the Elsmar Cove knows what stupid things (customer) auditors write up - which they feel are justified because the supplier is "being paid"...
     
  20. Ali.M

    Ali.M New Member

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    I don't think it is a requirement that your suppliers and/ or your outsource contractors are ISO 9001 certified unless it is a requirement from one of your customers.

    So an example of this would be;
    Company A makes wires for Company B whom uses the wires in hospital devices. Company A decides to outsource a process to Company C whom run an unclean factory. The process will result in contaminated wires.
    Therefore, if Company B has specific requirements around bacteria free environments during manufacturing, then Company A is required by ISO 9001 to make sure that the requirements are met. Company A + B could be assured that Company C would comply if they where certified in ISO 9001.
     

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