Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

7.2 Competence.

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Graham Thorpe, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. Graham Thorpe

    Graham Thorpe Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Location:
    Milton Keynes, UK
    7.2 Competence.

    OK I need your thoughts. We are a small team and all the brains in the outfit have wedges of documents proving their competence. Then there is me!

    I have moved so often I have no paperwork proving I have any qualifications relating to my role as the guy getting 9001 up and running and doing some IA.

    How should we approach proving I am good for the role? Is personal testimony from the company owner and chief mechanical designer ( we only have 1) any good? I worked with them both in the past when I implemented 9001. I could write a CV but who tells the truth on them? Truth is I qualified as a Lead Assessor of Quality Systems in Jan 1991, I was on the course when Desert Storm kicked off.
     
  2. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    A piece of paper may imply that one is qualified, but it does not mean that one is competent. Many folks have their driver's license - ergo, they are qualified to drive. However, some people are less competent at driving as noted by the number of speeding tickets, accidents they've been at fault for, and their subsequent insurance rates.

    Competency can be assessed via results/outcomes. It is perhaps easier to take this approach on an assembly line (i.e., no bad parts = competent employee or team).

    In your case, you've done the training and if you end up successfully spearheading your organization's goal to become ISO 9001, then you've done your job competently.

    Even internal audits and the nature of findings could be used to support your competency claim. There will be some things outside of your control, but if audit findings aren't attributed to your actions (or lack thereof), again, I'd consider you competent.
     
  3. Graham Thorpe

    Graham Thorpe Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Location:
    Milton Keynes, UK
    Nice

    Nice reply :) I just wanted current thoughts. You are right. I have a nice certificate from Microsoft saying I know stuff about Access. I do but I would never claim to be competent.
     
  4. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    17
    Graham,
    If I was your CB auditor I would ask if you have had any training. You say you took Lead Assessment training in 1991. Do you have a certificate ? That being said if your have experience where you work, the senior management support you, and if the Internal Audits are well done. That's good enough for me.

    p.s. The standard doesn't say you have to be formally training to do internal audits.
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    2,357
    Likes Received:
    1,220
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Graham: As I discover quite often, training doesn't equate to competency. It's a common fallacy that attending a "Lead Auditor" course makes you competent to audit. It doesn't, any more than a driver's license makes you a competent driver. Having a training certificate might satisfy an external (CB) auditor - and from that you'll confirm they are not competent! I run into that almost daily. Competency is, as ISO 9001 tells us, the demonstrated ability... The proof is in the pudding, as we say in Blighty! What should an effective, competent internal auditor be able to demonstrate? PM me and I'll send you the form I use...
     
  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    198
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Idk. In my state to get your drivers license you have to pass a driving test where you demonstrate competence. Granted, the competence requirement is extremely low, but you still have to show you kind of know what you're doing. :)
     
  7. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    17
    Touché !
     
  8. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    A one-time test does not demonstrate sustained competence.

    If you train John Doe to use a machine and he passes the test, but then goes on to make nonconforming product on the same machine, would you consider him competent?

    Yes, there are other variables to consider such as the machine's state, product differences, and so on, but showing you can do it once does not mean you are competent. It's a demonstration of short-term memory.

    Passing a test is a one-time event. You're now a trained driver and certified. But your speeding tickets and at-fault accidents are statements about your competency as a driver.
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  9. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    17
    Job descriptions usually have the pre-requisites necessary for the job and the training requirements to be completed. In addition your overall training flow-chart should indicate when competency is assessed i.e. Three weeks on the job after training is completed, who assesses competency i.e. Supervisor, and who has final approval that the person is competent i.e. Manager.

    The above is simply a method that would be accepted by a CB.
    .
     
  10. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    198
    Trophy Points:
    42

    Of course. But driving is probably a good, everyday, real world example. It's not a memory test. We learn, "train," to drive. We demonstrate our ability in a five min. excursion with the state DMV. Then they let us hit the road. At that point we are minimally competent -- we have met all the state requirements. No different than an employee demonstrating competence at a certain task after been trained to do it. What happens after is anyone's guess.
     
  11. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    17
    Graham is asking for our thoughts on to to resolve his problem....
     
  12. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    507
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    USA
    Have you had any employee evaluations that talked about your job performance? Since competency is demonstrated, any recognition of that demonstration can prove valuable.

    While it is true that classes and passing tests does not prove competency, such things - including industry certifications - are common sources of evidence for skills building.

    We often run into trouble with competency and certifications, through; certified people make mistakes all the time. Certified forklift drivers are supposed to get retrained following an incident, but I almost never see that happen because the organization too often is not aware the minor incidents have taken place. I just see a lot of impact-damaged warehouse racks and blank looks when I ask about it.
     
  13. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    17
    We have semi-annual Reviews. I present my objectives for the year to my manager in February. He reviews them with me, adds to them if necessary or modifies them. We reach a consensus and we sign-off on them at the same session I express my personal development goals which are also approved. We meet again in July/August to review progress and make changes if required. Final review occurs in December.

    The review process is quite mature and is used with some variations in many companies. In short - it works.
     
  14. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    538
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    As per ISO 9000:2015, competence is defined as the "ability to apply knowledge and skills to achieve intended results" with a Note that "Demonstrated competence is sometimes referred to as qualification".

    The statements below made me think why ISO 9000 use the word "sometimes":
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  15. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    538
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    I was asked recently by a particular consultancy firm if I have an updated certificate on ISO 14001:2015 since they want to engage me in an EMS project. I told them that, from 1999 to 2002, I've worked before in an organization that provides consultancy services that install environmental programs to facilitate acquisition of environmental compliance certificates from our country's Department of Environment, been providing consultancy/training services (as freelance) for ISO 14001 since its 1996 version, have attended a lead-auditor course on ISO 14001 on 2002 and have assisted organizations for certification to the 2004 and 2015 versions of ISO 14001. Unfortunately, they still want me to have an updated certificate on ISO 14001:2015.:(
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  16. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    17
    Tony,
    Put yourself in their shoes, they want to engage you in an EMS project obvioulynto,the 2015 version of the standard. Due deligence requires them to engage someone who can demonstrate knowledge of the 2015 version. Competency isn't in question because of your experience.
     
  17. KyleG

    KyleG Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2018
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Location:
    Reno Nevada
    Graham i had the same question, i previously was a production supervisor for multiple companies and have a talent for production, manufacturing, quality, and process improvement. this is my first (real) management role at age 23 i was worried about how to prove my competence. but through work spear heading ISO certification process and displaying to top management i can do what i said i was going to do. mind you i have no college just a (very) good resume. thank you for asking this question it helped me out a great deal along with the answers.
     
  18. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    538
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    You've been a quality analyst/auditor from 1981-1989, a corporate quality manager from 1982-2001, a Malcolm Baldrige awardee in 1996, a lead auditor for a known CB since 2002 up to present, not to mention your experience before 1981. If I will engage you to audit for my organization, what would you feel if I ask you "Do you have a certificate that will convince me that you are qualified to audit against the ISO 9001:2015 version?"
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  19. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    17
    SAI Global comply with all the rules laid down by International and National Accreditation Bodies. One of those rules is quite simply you must complete an on-line training session and subsequently pass the on-line exam before auditing any company to ISO 9001:2015. I had no choice, either take the training or stop auditing.
    So in answer to your query; I would give you a copy of my certificate and show you my history of auditing via the SAI on-line database. When a client enters into an agreement with SAI the credentials of any auditor assigned to you can and will be provided on request.
     
  20. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    2,357
    Likes Received:
    1,220
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Sadly, a certificate proves nothing, except that (maybe) someone sat in a class (real or virtual). It doesn't prove competency. It becomes very clear to us that it's a "demonstration" of a person's skills, knowledge, experiences etc which has true meaning. We can trade all day long on "been there, done that", however, it's somewhat meaningless. What counts, at least in my book, is "plausibility" especially among peers. Too many take the approach that a document is desirable over anything else. In September 1938, the British Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain waved a piece of paper and told us "Peace for our time"...
     
    tony s likes this.

Share This Page