What criteria to follow to write down this NC?

Hello everyone

Please help to clarify what is the best method to write down a NC into a process.

I´ll explain, When auditing the Purchasing process, and asked the auditee to show the identified
process where he is considered, the result, it was not possible to access the document, because a network failure caused because server was down caused by an electric shutdown.
From Here, I have several clauses on Where I can support the NC.

4.4.1
The organization shall determine the processes needed for the quality management system and their
application throughout the organization, and shall:

Control of documents
7.5.3.1 a) it is available and suitable for use, where and when it is needed;

Network for computers and electric issue
7.1.3
a) buildings and associated utilities;
b) equipment, including hardware and software;
d) information and communication technology.

In your opinion, which clause or clauses should I mention as a source of the NC?


Thanks

 

In writing an NC, you have to establish first a requirement/criteria. You don't need to quote all the ISO 9001 clauses that you deem relevant to the evidence you have observed. You can also raise the issue against an internal or external requirement without the need to quote a clause of ISO 9001. From your explanation, it seems that you're just seeing symptoms and you will need to dig deeper to determine whether there is a nonconformity behind the symptoms.

 

Thanks Tony s
Without going deeper, it may be simple in my opinion ,not mentioning possible causes, Id consider it like this .
I'm asking a document, if for any reason it can't be shown.
I think it may be 7.5.3 (document is not available) as simple as that, don't you think like this?
Thanks

 

On your initial explanation, apparently, the document is existing but only inaccessible due to electric shutdown. I don't see yet an NC on this UNLESS it is a critical document that must be made available all the time, anytime at any place. If there's a requirement that such document must be made available anytime, all the time, every time, anywhere, any place at any situation to anyone who ask for it and the auditee failed to present it to an auditor, then I would definitely agree that there's an NC against that requirement - not necessarily against 7.5.3.

 

To

Tonys , im asking the file, I don’t know if exist, by the way, I have to disagree in someway, is it really complex to do an audit?, do really exist into a system a control of all what you say, to use as a criteria the availability of some files? Audits takes very little time for processes , and there are other more important issues to audit , compared to the criteria you mention , unless you have one complete day to audit a process.
I have witnessed several cb audits, and never have seen an audit following your complex criteria, please explain a little bit more.
I thought it was more simple to audit.
Thanks

 

thanks Andy
I didn't explain the case completely, here goes.
It was a three days Audit, audited 12 processes, when auditing one process, everything was running fine , auditee showed several all documents, suddenly, it couldn't show a pair of documents, because a network failure.
If so stop the audit, and continue when network is ok, then in what moment could I report infraestructure nonconformities?.
But in this case, I may report both , document availability 7.5 and 7.1.3 network problems, why no?
Please explain
Thanks

 

Thabks

thanks
Yes in fact ,I'm Overthinking this issue because only happened three times and only in one process

 

Not really, unless you want every issue raised to every clause you deem relevant.

My approach is simple. A NC can only be raised against a requirement. What is/are the requirement in your example?

Yes, unless your overthinking every issue and grasping at any relevant clauses to raise an NC.

 

Tony

Tony's
"My approach is simple. A NC can only be raised against a requirement. What is/are the requirement in your example?
To have some clearer input for me
In the example, one iso requirement is 7.5.3.1 a.
To have available the document, additional into an internal procedure of control of documents , only mention the process of revisions and approvals, nothing regarding availability.if you ask the auditee to show you the document, and for whatever reason he can't, I think you simply raise the NC, don't have to worry to investigate the reason., The support, would be" document was not available" if going deep, it could be competency, network failure, computer failure, etc.in this situation, what would you do?
Once in an audit training, I was told that we have to raise the NC in front of you, back to that nC, it could Fit network, people, compu ter, etc.
Thanks

 

T

thanks Jenny
Could You share your Point of View of my last message?
Thanks

 

Stuff happens. There is no NC here. Electrical power goes out and computers go down. Unless there is some requirement for backup move on to important things.

 

Auditors should be able to understand not every negative issues in front of them are NCs. They could be symptoms or consequences of NCs or risks that need to be dealt with. NCs can lead to nonconforming outputs, nonconforming products/services, complaints, undesirable effects, non-achievement of objectives, unavailability of documents, network failure, server failure, electric shutdown, etc.