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Sampling Plan for Internal Audits - ISO 2859 or 3951 or neither?

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Nikki, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. Nikki

    Nikki Well-Known Member

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    Can someone tell me which standard would be best to help us determine a good sampling plan for internal audits?

    My manager mentioned the two standards in the title, but when I looked into them, each has a few different "sub-standards".

    Any help would be most appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Nikki
     
    Nikki, Jun 1, 2020
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  2. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Good day @Nikki ;
    Unless I am inferring incorrectly, I think your organization may be confused a bit. The referenced AQL sampling standards (2859 and 3951) are not specific to the topic of internal audits.

    ISO 2859 is guidance on establishing sampling plans for attribute features (think simply GO vs NO GO gage, or....PRESENT vs NOT PRESENT, etc..etc...)
    ISO 3951 is guidance on establishing sampling plans for variable gauging features (think 1.23 mm vs 1.27 mm, etc..etc...etc..)

    These type of sampling plans are common within manufacturing facilities at the point of work to establishing a FREQUENCY for determining if product is good or bad (or process in control vs out of control).
    The purpose of sampling plans is to remove the need for measuring 100% of the product .Instead of verifying ('measuring") 100% of the product, sampling plans are established via statistical determination to allow a "sampling" of measurements so not all 100% need to be measured.

    Conversely,
    The purpose of internal auditing is to confirm if internal and international standard requirements are being met and that the management system is effective.

    Hope this helps.
    Be well.
     
    John C. Abnet, Jun 1, 2020
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Nikki:

    In my (many) years of experience, neither of these are in any way applicable to internal audits. To be very honest, I find ZERO applicability of "sampling" to internal audits, at all. For external audits, yes, possibly. For internal audits, the purpose for doing the audit, the audit scope and criteria are going to - or at least SHOULD - define what you are taking a look at, when considering the focus of the audit. It actually comes from the concept of what you're going to be auditing and why...
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
    Andy Nichols, Jun 1, 2020
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    @John C. Abnet is correct. However, the challenge many are faced with is the inclusion of sampling in ISO 19011 as a practice. This is a quirk of ISO 19011 which treats all forms of auditing equally when, in fact, they aren't. Specifically, in the area of sampling this is very true.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
    Andy Nichols, Jun 1, 2020
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Bev's response at the Cove is fabulous!
     
    Andy Nichols, Jun 2, 2020
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  6. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    John C. Abnet, Jun 2, 2020
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