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Product Audit Question

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by qmr1976, Nov 10, 2023.

  1. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to revamp our internal audit schedule based on the lack of auditors we have as of late. I know.....the standard also has a resources/people clause BUT I'm making the best of a bad situation here, so I was wanting to see if using certain information would suffice as a completed 'audit' for Product Audits. For example, Final Inspection reports or annual validations. Our customer doesn't have a CSR defnining the approach but wanted to see if anyone else has had to deal with similar obstacles/solutions.
     
    qmr1976, Nov 10, 2023
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  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Doing product audits is a very “flexible” thing. No need to rigidly schedule audits. Even if we overlook the fact that product audit shouldn’t be included under 9.2, it simply says they need to be planned. Start with any products and associated processes which have cause issues previously and start there. No point in auditing products which don’t cause you - or customers - problems. Put them on the bottom of the pile.
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 10, 2023
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    John C. Abnet likes this.
  3. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Agree with the counsel that @Andy Nichols provided you.

    Considering there is no overriding CSR (as you stated) then who is to say that a scheduled product verification by a production member as defined on the control plan is not a "product audit" ?
    (The only pushback I have ever heard regarding this position is that the definition of "audit" (ISO 9000:2015) includes the term "independent". This should be considered).

    Hope this helps.
    Be well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2023
    John C. Abnet, Nov 13, 2023
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, the definition of audit, NOT - as some people would mis-represent - the auditor... The idea is that there's no pressure to get a specific result from the audit, not that the auditor is from a different department etc. That's an old trope often from people who only know the 3rd party (registrar) "story" of auditing (being "independent").
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 13, 2023
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  5. Mikey

    Mikey Member

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    Independent is one thing, but the auditor has to be knowledgeable about the product they are auditing "Product auditors shall demonstrate competence in understanding product requirements and use of relevant measuring and test equipment to verify product conformity." Sometimes in the interest of independence from the process, you can lose the knowledge needed to actual perform the audit.
     
    Mikey, Nov 13, 2023
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly, that's why the auditor isn't "independent", it's the audit process (planning etc). We WANT people who know what they're looking at! The whole thing about auditors being from another department is ridiculous and promulgated by (mostly) CB representatives (who are trying to fill auditor courses they provide, in my experience).

    Actually, it also exposes a mis-alignment of the product audit side of IATF which shouldn't be included in 9.2, but in 9.1, since it's a product measurement/monitoring function.
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 13, 2023
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  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    IATF provided the statement “Where not defined by the customer, the organization shall define the approach to be used”. However, you will need to define “appropriate stages”. Does final inspection and annual validation qualify as “appropriate stages of production and delivery”? Are the preceding/upstream processes of production not appropriate? What about the condition of the product upon delivery?
     
    tony s, Dec 2, 2023
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  8. Fatima@P&H

    Fatima@P&H New Member

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    Hi, I made a schedule for 1 audit per week, 4 audits in the month which seems to be manageable when working with short staff. Based- pretty much on the visual inspection & whatever criteria are set up on the inspection standard to confirm has been missed during the first off / last off process. First products to be audited are those problematic ones, where we had any complaints in the past year, then it is up to you - you just need to have it documented that this is the way it is done now, and stick to it. Try to be realistic about your resources and do not overcomplicate things and you will be ok. Regards
     
    Fatima@P&H, Dec 4, 2023
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    qmr1976 likes this.