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Paradox, or what?

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Andy Nichols, Nov 5, 2023.

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  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Does anyone else find it odd that most functions in an organization have someone to “manage” the people performing work.
    Typically, they ensure the work is performed to the required standards, training needs identified and facilitated and so on. It’s most common that these managers are also given training, beyond what the people doing the work receive. Management training may include budgeting, resource planning, scheduling, performance evaluations and process performance to goals etc.

    Does anyone find it paradoxical that, despite the fact that Internal Quality Audits in an organization - an activity which is almost universally new and not institutional like other work - there’s no formal qualification or training for anyone to manage those audits and auditors?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2023
    Andy Nichols, Nov 5, 2023
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  2. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    Your premise is at least partially faulty. I have worked at numerous companies, and none of them provided formal training for new managers. In my experience, the new manager would have to reach out and ask how to perform various tasks on an ad hoc basis. In many cases, they would simply do what they thought was best and not ask for help. In a few cases, another manager might take an interest and mentor them, but that was rare.
     
    Miner, Nov 6, 2023
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Is it the "formality" which is the issue? I'd agree, but it brings up a point. Where does anyone who runs an audit programme get that mentoring?
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 6, 2023
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  4. Mikey

    Mikey Member

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    One great help to me has been learning from CB auditors. That has helped me tremendously in knowing what to do, and in a great many cases, what not to do. As far as the audit program goes, I think self study is vital. From communities like this, you can gain lots of insight. Again, maybe its learning what doesn't work.
    As a manger, I imagine its very rare to find SOP's or other manuals to tell you what to do. Its thinking outside the box. Looking for improvement. Using the creativity that helped you get where you are.
     
    Mikey, Nov 10, 2023
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    This really worries me, on many, many levels…
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 10, 2023
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  6. Mikey

    Mikey Member

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    You have to read the statement in its entirety, not just the first sentence. You can learn from any auditor. I have had the pleasure in my 1/4 century of dealing with some fantastic 3rd party auditors, that brought up some things that get you thinking. In turn, actual value added improvements were made. I have also had some experience with absolutely terrible ones that have no business in the field.

    One of the latter in particular was early on in my career. The auditor really reached for a couple of findings, core tools related. I wasn't prepared to argue intelligently, even though I knew they were wrong, I was having to thumb through the manuals, and not quickly enough to prove my point. Big lesson learned. I needed to educate myself further with the core tools. The finding that was concocted was of no value, but my finding of my own competency level was of tremendous value. I greatly improved my understanding, was a huge confidence boost for a young guy, and did nothing but make me better at what I do.
     
    Mikey, Nov 10, 2023
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  7. Mikey

    Mikey Member

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    There is no reason for that to worry you, on any level. None of my customers share that concern.
     
    Mikey, Nov 10, 2023
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Unless you are doing a 3rd party audit, then what they do has much less relevance to internal audits. Trust me. The more I know about internal audits vs external, the less I see commonality. If you always evaluate CB auditor against their model of audits, you will see variation. You may see some better than others - at external audits. But what if you had a model of internal audits, which wasn’t even close to the CB model? What then?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2023
    Andy Nichols, Nov 10, 2023
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  9. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    I guess “learning” from the CB auditors does not necessarily mean getting good counsel from them. “Big lessons learned” like what Mikey had, are usually acquired from dubious CB audit findings and advice.
     
    tony s, Dec 6, 2023
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