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ISO 9001:2008 or ISO 9001:2015

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by yana herdiana, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. yana herdiana

    yana herdiana New Member

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    hi,
    I have come to work in the contracting company, but have not implemented a quality management system .... which one should be the quality management system ISO 9001: 2008 or 2015 that I will prepare, given to me when straight to ISO 9001: 2008 is the documentation will be neat and nice ... but in iso 9001: 2015 is not all documentation accommodated ... what do you think?
     
    yana herdiana, Sep 2, 2016
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  2. yodon

    yodon Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you're just getting started so it wouldn't make sense to consider 9001:2008 at this point. I think that the cut-off date for issuing new 9001:2008 certificates is nearing or has already occurred.
     
    yodon, Sep 2, 2016
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  3. luisdiaz980

    luisdiaz980 New Member

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    Right now the 2015 version is the current one, so it's logical that you work in that one. There are differences in version 2015 regarding 2008 but in essence they are both guidelines for a Quality Management System so the update must be like another step in the same path.
     
    luisdiaz980, Sep 2, 2016
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  4. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    If you were able to assess that your documentation is "neat and nice" for 2008, then 2015's documentation requirements should not be a problem to you. Your CB can only give you a contract until the transition period expires on September 2018, if you chose 2008 certification. If you go directly to 2015, then you can have a full 3 year contract with your CB. The more practical and sensible option is to go directly to 2015.
     
    tony s, Sep 4, 2016
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  5. Nick1

    Nick1 Member

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    I would recommend to start the 2015 version mostly based on the fact that you have to be ISO9001:2015 certified before 2018. The extra documents it requires isn't very extensive though it will probably take some time to gather all the required information.
     
    Nick1, Sep 4, 2016
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Nick - what "extra documents" does 2015 require? BTW, no 2008 certificates can be issued after March 2017 - if anyone goes this route, better get your running shoes on!
     
    Andy Nichols, Sep 4, 2016
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  7. Nick1

    Nick1 Member

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    Well technically you are right, you don't have to create new documents. However the new HLS setup including the Risk analysis, context analysis and stakeholder analysis are required. In practice I noticed that a lot of companies put these analysis into documents but indeed you could also just remember them or put them in existing documents.
     
    Nick1, Sep 5, 2016
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    So, if it's technically correct, why advocate document for something unnecessary? HLS isn't a document. It's not a requirement. If you are fashioning a quality manual or something else aligned with the HLS, then you are doing extra, unnecessary work. Businesses aren't structured on the HLS. Risk, context and stakeholder "analysis" are also not required nor do they need documenting. You may wish to revisit your understanding of the 2015 requirements...

    Risk based thinking is a different thing. Having leadership be able to talk to the risk and opportunities they face is what's required. Understanding the context of the organization and how that affects setting policy and objectives is what's required and can be documented in management review. Understanding internal and external interested parties is also required and, similarly, may be recorded in a management review. That's it!
     
    Andy Nichols, Sep 5, 2016
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  9. Nick1

    Nick1 Member

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    I understand companies are not structured around the HLS but getting certified without any of this will be a tough sell. I have experienced first hand how rigorous the external auditor can be when it comes to these analysis.
     
    Nick1, Sep 5, 2016
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  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    But we don't structure a QMS to make auditors happy. I, too, have undergone a "rigorous" audit - where the auditor was completely off base asking for all kinds of documentation which were a) unnecessary and b) not actually required. For example, the auditor told the client the internal audit process wasn't "defined". How did they come to that conclusion? There were emails defining the scope etc for the audit, when the audit would be conducted and there was evidence of a process approach. Since I did the audits and the auditor didn't ask me what the process how can they conclude the process isn't "defined"?

    No, this was a lazy, 2008 thinking external auditor who lacks competence to deal with what they were shown and then ask more questions. Any starting down the route of doing things to satisfy "rigorous" external auditors, rather than understanding how to explain their QMS is on a very slippery slope indeed.
     
    Andy Nichols, Sep 5, 2016
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  11. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    It is but one we all take into account. It's really difficult not to just take the easy way out and make it idiot proof so the auditor can see it in black and white. Some auditors want it laid out for them so they don't have to do anything. Some times you need to pick your battles. Its very frustrating.
     
    Golfman25, Sep 5, 2016
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  12. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    From my experience, it id recommended that Top Management be present during the first audit to 2015 because the Management Review will reveal how he tells the story around Context of the Organization and Risk based think
    Welcome aboard QFO! Sorry I hit enter before finishing my sentence. The best thing for you to do is to take an awareness training in 2015 standard. If you have already taken that , then go an conduct your first Management Review of the system. Talk about your company's business plan (Context) and how you can develop a strategy to fulfill it ( SWOT). Then determine the customer (Internal/External) requirements. In determining the risk, look at the (SWOT) weakness and threats and assign them as risk to prevent you from achieving your objectives. Your Opportunities for improvement in the SWOT should address the risks identified. this may be a lot to cover during the first Management Review but you can schedule another one in the next quarter to follow-up the actions from the first review. Our experience was rather difficult but we got the certificate.
     
    MCW8888, Sep 5, 2016
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  13. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    The
     
    MCW8888, Sep 5, 2016
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  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Look, here's what everyone misses: Which auditor are you building the system to please? They are all different. Some worse than others. No wonder management don't care about ISO. It's not them being engaged. If it were, arguing with some auditor who comes once a year for a few days would be simple. They'd be shut down pretty quickly. Instead we implement from entirely the wrong perspective.
     
    Andy Nichols, Sep 6, 2016
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  15. Nick1

    Nick1 Member

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    I complete agree with you. The thing is in some markets companies just needs the ISO certificaat whether we like it or not. This makes people to just follow the things the auditor says cause the company can hardly operate without ISO, Oil and gas/ industry.

    Companies should have a stronger voice to this, what I experienced is that in some companies the stakes are just to high for higher management.
     
    Nick1, Sep 6, 2016
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