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Is "Lean" on your Internal Auditors' Competencies?

Discussion in 'Process Audits and Layered Process Audits' started by Andy Nichols, May 25, 2016.

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Are your infernal QMS Auditors also "Lean" savvy?

Poll closed Jun 26, 2016.

  1. Yes, all of them.

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%

  2. Some of them are.

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%

  3. Nope.

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%
  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I just had an interesting discussion with a friend who teaches Lean and it got me thinking. How many Internal QMS Auditors know "Lean" when they see it? Or put another way, is any emphasis placed on Internal Auditors seeing the World except with "ISO Goggles" on?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 25, 2016
    #1
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  2. Claes Gefvenberg

    Claes Gefvenberg Moderator Staff Member

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    Good question, with obvious potential for an interesting discussion. I added a poll.

    In our case: Yes, we are also wearing lean goggles.
     
    Claes Gefvenberg, May 26, 2016
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  3. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    When *I* train them...yes.

    When they're sent off-site...nope. The idea of lean and waste identification is then brought into the audit prep and team meetings.
     
    RoxaneB, May 26, 2016
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  4. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Hewre's how I practice my "Lean savviness": I made them aware that Lean and ISO9001:2015 have something in common "PDCA".
     
    MCW8888, May 26, 2016
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  5. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay, I'll bite...how does PDCA relate to Lean?
     
    RoxaneB, May 26, 2016
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  6. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    HAHAHHAAHAAHAAHAA !!
    Mine are nega-lean. They are always going on about MORE reports and MORE processes and a lot less about reviewing current poor practices to make them lean.
     
    ncwalker, May 26, 2016
    #6
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  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Your auditors?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 26, 2016
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  8. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    The internal ones. We are a large-ish organization. There's a group of people who's jobs is fully focused on meeting ISO/TS requirements. That's all they have to do. So when they aren't busy, they tend to "create" ways to get more compliant.

    Not the external auditors. Those guys can be a dice roll. Sometimes we are the best things since sliced bread, then sometimes we are all confused and wrong. Quite the swing given the fact that we ARE a large-ish organization and slow to change.

    Also - remember I am a bit of an admitted cynic when it comes to TS/ISO. Yes, it has it's place. But too often it morphs into a game of arguing about the rules of the game instead of working towards the intent. I visit and audit factories (not TS, technical competency audits) and have been in hundreds. There's factories who don't carry the certs (and don't supply automotive) that would run circles around a nominal factory that has them all - yet we cannot source them. AND I have been in factories with the cert hanging on the wall in the lobby in a golden frame and they are operationally steps away from closing the doors due to poor performance.

    This has taught me that while it is a discriminator, it should in now way be taken as THE discriminator. And frequently lacks location to location calibration. Especially across international boundaries.
     
    ncwalker, May 26, 2016
    #8
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    So, they're poorly managed? Do they audit strictly to the ISO/TS 16949 requirements, like the CB does? I've seen that happen in large tier 1s. Their whole reason was to sweep up before the CB auditors - and they had as many goofball interpretations as the CB auditors - figures - they went to the same darned training!

    I'd be asking why they don't know how to report on effectiveness. GE Power Gen has what they called a "Red Team" - a corporate internal audit group - but the difference was, these guys were good, plus they knew where the skeletons were...
     
    Andy Nichols, May 26, 2016
    #9
  10. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    I'm not so sure poorly managed. Maybe. We don't have a proper ISO culture. I mean, everyone here can talk intelligently about it. But the climate is one of "look how well we are meeting the requirements." To me, that's not value added. The climate needs to be "look how well we are deploying the concepts."

    We do really well on the audits. But when I'm in the meetings it feels like a circle jerk.
     
    ncwalker, May 27, 2016
    #10
  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not any auditor's responsibility to be making statements like this:

    Of course, if they all audit to ISO/TS 16949 and have been trained that way, that's all you'll get and
    won't be achieved...
     
    Andy Nichols, May 27, 2016
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  12. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the late response. I was traveling back and my plane was diverted at another location due to the storm and it finally reached my home state at midnight last night. Anyway here are my Lean in the ISO:9002:2015 thoughts:

    Deming: - Plan - Do- Check- Act
    Lean: Define Performance metrics - Value Stream Eliminate waste Control Visual Acts
    ISO: Strategic Planning and Quality Objectives Improve; Barrier thinking Management Review & Action plans reduce risk to As Low As Reasonable Possible (ALARP)
     
    MCW8888, May 27, 2016
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  13. normzone

    normzone Well-Known Member

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    " We are a large-ish organization. There's a group of people who's jobs is fully focused on meeting ISO/TS requirements. That's all they have to do. So when they aren't busy, they tend to "create" ways to get more compliant. "

    You mean there are jobs where you can have not busy moments? Oh, I've always worked for small & midsized organizations. That explains it.

    Interesting topic...
     
    normzone, May 27, 2016
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  14. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    My guess is that this was supposed to be presented as some form of table, based on the formatting.

    With all due respect, I do disagree with the notion that Lean is related to PDCA. One can apply Lean to the PDCA methodology and an ISO management system, in that it is always possible to make them more efficient. But there isn't really any Lean "requirement" for performance metrics, the Lean "toolbox" (for lack of a better word) goes beyond value stream mapping, the ways to eliminate waste are numerous (and aren't really a check item) and I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by "control visual acts".

    If anything, I would suggest that the culture of Lean can even embrace the ISO requirements. This may help eliminate the notion that an organization has a QMS and "how we do everything else" (i.e., multiple ways of functioning/operating).

    For example...

    When it comes time to start planning and setting objectives, look beyond quality. Look beyond customer complaints and on-time-delivery, and delve deeper into process/manufacturing areas and inventory.

    Audits shouldn't be just about checking conformance to (documented) processes and requirements...it should look for ways to streamline activities, reduce redundancies, eliminate errors, etc.

    Tools developed as part of an ISO program can be utilized by processes/teams outside of the ISO "world".

    A 5S program can be incorporated into preventive actions and improvement initiatives.

    At the end of the day, ISO is really about effectiveness...consistently meeting requirements. Lean is about efficiency...generating less waste, using less resources, needing less time. Integrate them and the end result is a Business Management System - something that goes well beyond ISO and PDCA.
     
    RoxaneB, May 27, 2016
    #14
  15. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    In my experience, this is what happens when organizations are more focused on adjusting their "culture" to fit the requirements instead of exploring and defining how the requirements fit their culture.
     
    RoxaneB, May 27, 2016
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  16. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's the size, though that plays a part. My last organization was even larger than my current. But in an industry with much lower profit margins. Consequently, everyone was really busy and wore many hats. So even though I said large-ish, now that I think about it, I'm not sure that's the only factor.

    It also depends on the what I will term the visibility and monitorability (not even a word, but I'm using it) of the functional area. In MY group, everyone knows what we are supposed to be doing. So everyone's a critic, and we are constantly being given suggestions and the like. But like IT, the ISO group is sort of there. And I don't think anyone has a good handle on what they are supposed to be doing in order to say whether they are accomplishing a lot or not. Think about it - unless you are a real internet computer nerd, do you KNOW what your IT department is supposed to be doing? Would you know if your IT guy was working hard or not?
     
    ncwalker, May 27, 2016
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  17. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    Mine as well.

    And hey, I totally recognize what's going on in my world. Doesn't mean I am necessarily in a position to change it. I am very zen and tend to stay in my circle of influence. I want to SURVIVE a job in quality. :)
     
    ncwalker, May 27, 2016
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  18. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Thank you Roxanne. I am in the very early stage of implementing Lean in the ISO world. Management still believes that ISO is in a silo in itself. The organization is big on continuous improvement Lean and 6 sigma.
     
    MCW8888, May 27, 2016
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  19. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, it is simple, isn't it? Their objectives should be in alignment - as a service - with those of the other functions. Case in point: An internal auditor found a $8M savings which management weren't aware could be made, all because the home-brewed software for controlling NCP was incomplete. Where was it on the punch list of projects to be completed? #13 of 20 and sliding down! Apparently, This IT group imagined that their focus was to bring the brightest and best technology to peoples' desks. Once this was discovered and management made aware that an internal reporting function which could have saved $8M (in reality it was more) they got a sharp jerk on their leash to bring them back into alignment...
     
    Andy Nichols, May 27, 2016
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  20. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly as I said - poorly managed. Trust me, if an organization has such a group and there's a change of leadership then expect that group to be gone in a while. I witnessed the demise of a large corporate Quality group like that in the late 90's. If there's no chance of new leadership doing it, then the existing leadership aren't in control. Someone will notice, eventually!
     
    Andy Nichols, May 27, 2016
    #20