Internal Audits and "P.D.C.A"

Andy

ISO is obsessed with "PDCA", in the same way as it is obsessed with "processes" (ever since it discovered them in 2000). I wouldn't about it (as I am sure you don't!).

 

I have a question about Internal Audits and applying "P.D.C.A" to them. I understand "Plan", "Do", but what about "Check" (or Study if you prefer). What is checked? Against what? By whom? And why? Anyone shed some light on this?
Me. Andy,
Where the organization has no specific documented information for a particular activity, and this is not required by the standard, it is acceptable for this activity to be conducted using as a basis the relevant clause of ISO 9001:2015. In these situations, both internal and external audits may use the text of ISO 9001:2015 for conformity assessment purpose.
With respect to PDCA. Since QMS is composed of interrelated processes. Understanding how results are produced by this system, including all its processes, resources, controls and interactions, allows the organization to optimize its performance.
Under such inter related procedure and for achievment of results you need PDCA cycle. Plan-Road Map to the ultimate result, Do-Action on path of travel, Check-To confirm that you are on the correct road and ACT- To correct for any deviation

 

Just tossing this out...

The 'check' part is to assess effectiveness so how do you know if your internal audits are effective? Are external audits (ISO or customer) finding issues that the internal audit should have found? I expect it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to measure the business benefits of an internal audit.

I got nothing else.

 

I'm asking about applying P.D.C.A to the actual internal audit, Nishith. How to apply "check" in particular. Check what? Checking against what? Who does the checking?
Dear Mr. Andy,
The following guidline from ISO will answer your question

 

Andy
As I guess you guessed, that should have read: "I wouldn't worry about it...".

 

So we all have our opinions. My opinion, is that thinking how PDCA fits into ISO in general can be confusing. It can also be confusing to think about how PDCA fits into individual processes.

Speaking about Internal Auditing specifically, I can say honestly that I haven't given it much thought on how PDCA fits, but I would say that: Plan - Is planing for an audit; Do - Is doing the audit; Check - Is a self evaluation on how you feel the audit went(i.e. How did the audit go vs your plan?); and Act - What changes could be made to help make improvements in the next audit.

So basically, I am saying that the Check step would be personal review of myself in performing internal audits, and then trying to make improvements with the goal of making the process a value added for the company as possible.

 

"Check" (for what it's worth) is the internal audit of the internal audit system...and auditing the audit of the audit.
Quite a stretch...but I've always found the "check" as a separate function to be quite a stretch anyway.
One performs "check" while performing "do", one loses fingers otherwise when operating power tools.
...checking again later is trying to turn a normal human behavior into a business system. Hasn't worked yet...

 

PDCA is pretty simple. even on an audit.. it's a process.

Auditing of an organization is the process,

the input is the plan, person, the processes/functions being audited.

the process is the auditing and review the process, function, according to the plan.

the output is the audit report and corrective actions/opportunities.


to look at this now from PDCA

PLAN (the planning of audit, required checklist, training, person, etc)
DO (conducting of the audit)
CHECK (review of the audit and its result to see if it effectively audited the system, this includes seeing if all expected areas are being reviewed or maybe even a lack of finding can be a signal that audit is not good)
ACT (modify the PLAN for next time)

.... i don't know, i thought it's quite simple and straightforward..