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Internal Auditor Competency

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Andy Nichols, Nov 28, 2023.

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  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Does anyone else see a paradox? IATF 16949 requirements make NO effort to ensure that Internal Auditors are chosen for their ability to tell (Top) management that they aren't running their Operation effectively AND efficiently?
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 28, 2023
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  2. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Were would an internal auditor get off telling top management that? Their job is to compare the metrics, kpi's, to the stated targets and let management go from there. "Effectively and Efficiently" are opinions after all.
     
    Golfman25, Nov 28, 2023
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Not according to ISO 9001 and IATF 16949…
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 29, 2023
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  4. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Define them then.
     
    Golfman25, Nov 29, 2023
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You mean along with all the other words used in the standard which in the English language can have multiple meanings, depending on context?
    How does your leadership decide what’s effective and efficient? That’s all that counts. Or do you all sit around like the 4 Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch, debating “opinion”?
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 29, 2023
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  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    My point is leadership sets the number — say 80% machine usage, or whatever. The internal auditor says you either met the number or you didn’t. Whether the auditor believes 80% is effective or efficient is irrelevant, as it’s not his job.

    So he is not telling management they aren’t effective or efficient. He’s telling them they didn’t hit their number, which they should already know as part of management review.
     
    Golfman25, Nov 29, 2023
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  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Internal auditors are “information providers”. Both ISO 9001 and IATF 16949 require internal auditors to provide information about conformity and effectiveness (as per clause 9.2.1 a & b). The realization of providing the information happens when top management consider the audit results as part of the inputs during the review of the QMS’ suitability, adequacy, effectiveness and alignment with strategic direction (as per clause 9.3.2c.6).

    Since clause 9.2.2.3 of IATF 16949 requires audit of the manufacturing process to determine effectiveness and efficiency, then the information resulting from this audit must also be provided to the top management as input to management review (as per clause 9.3.2.1 b & c).
     
    tony s, Dec 2, 2023
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd suggest that this is only part of the story and that a vital piece is missing: If all an auditor does is these things, why bother with internal audits? If management review is frequently looking at performance (and the organization is small) why bother with internal audits. Only that a) Management review is supposed to be taking a "strategic view" of things and internal audits aren't restricted to looking at "the metrics, kpi's, to the stated targets"
     
    Andy Nichols, Dec 5, 2023
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  9. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody said that is all an auditor does. Your original question was telling management "they aren't running their Operation effectively AND efficiently."
     
    Golfman25, Dec 5, 2023
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  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    OK, what else are they doing?
     
    Andy Nichols, Dec 5, 2023
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  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe in your organization. That’s your unique experience, however, since my unique experience is of many, many organizations who don’t run effective and efficient management systems - one I’m familiar with wasted $8M in processing rejects - it is up to the internal auditors to report that. Hence my question.
     
    Andy Nichols, Dec 5, 2023
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  12. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    So how do you know $8m was “wasted” processing rejects? Do you know what the cost would be to eliminate the rejects? What’s the ROI?

    Now that’s my point. Maybe it was wasted. Maybe it wasn’t. That’s for management to decide. That’s what makes them management.
     
    Golfman25, Dec 6, 2023
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  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, because they had data on it. Yes, because it was a simple fix. The actual cost was closer to $14M. Of course it was wasted. Management didn't know it was going on which is why they don't manage at that facility anymore... "Management" doesn't infer omnipotence...
     
    Andy Nichols, Dec 6, 2023
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  14. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Active Member

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    What are the required credentials for a facility holding an IATF certificate to have an internal lead auditor?
     
    S1D3K1CK, Jan 6, 2024
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  15. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    None. It’s a common fallacy that someone (often from an organization which offers LA courses) says a Lead Auditor is needed. Now, if your organization has decided to audit suppliers, then the Lead Auditor training can be very applicable - it’s the main reason the (professional) qualification exists in the first place! For internal audits? Nope, defo not. In fact, I’d avoid it - and I wrote and teach such a class.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2024
    Andy Nichols, Jan 7, 2024
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  16. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Active Member

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    Would you recommend having a consultant come in and evaluate our system to the IATF standard to help prepare for an incoming audit? All of our previous management have left the company and I am now the only remaining qualified personnel left next to the new owners and I do not want to fail our upcoming tri-annual IATF audit.
     
    S1D3K1CK, Jan 8, 2024
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  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Absolutely I would - if you find the right, properly qualified person. I can assist in locating a potential resource - you're in CA?
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 8, 2024
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  18. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Active Member

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    Yes! Central Valley.
     
    S1D3K1CK, Jan 8, 2024
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