1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

honesty vs loyalty

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Katrijn, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. Katrijn

    Katrijn Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2019
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Hello,
    our renewal is getting closer... and I don't think it's looking very pretty.
    There is an ok 'paper quality', but in reality 9001 is not practiced here.

    How do you balance the line between fighting for a "good audit" (a good result for CEO) and a good audit (report that reflects the actual compliance and results with constructive feedback by remarks and NC's)?

    thanks
    K
     
    Katrijn, Jan 28, 2020
    #1
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,227
    Likes Received:
    2,613
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    I wouldn't sweat what an external auditor finds. You'll be disappointed (based on my experience). The way to handle the audit is to ensure that people "take control" of the audit process by NOT waiting for questions to be asked - not keeping quiet until asked is the WRONG approach. It sets up a feeling of animosity, and auditors detect this and start digging. That's when it unravels.

    Have your people be confident and explain their (part in) the processes, what they do, any documentation, what they are responsible for etc, etc. Overwhelm the auditor with knowledge. That should deliver what the CEO wants and you'll see past the external auditor and see it for what it is (btw are you at all concerned that internal audits aren't effective?)
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 28, 2020
    #2
    Nicholas777 and John C. Abnet like this.
  3. Katrijn

    Katrijn Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2019
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Andy,
    that's not exactly my point. I've been handling external audits as you described...
    The issue is, maybe it is time for the company to face reality. We're not doing quality as per ISO norm.

    I don't know... maybe it's more of an existential question...
    How many of the certified companies are really walking the walk instead of just talking the talk??
     
    Katrijn, Jan 28, 2020
    #3
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,227
    Likes Received:
    2,613
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    What are the facts?

    Experience shows not many... The ability to be certified is a pretty low bar. Expecting a CB auditor to raise that bar isn't a realistic expectation in my experience.

    Why isn't your internal audit program elevating management's understanding of "quality"?
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 28, 2020
    #4
    Nikki, Nicholas777 and John C. Abnet like this.
  5. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    516
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Upper Midwest- USA
    @Andy Nichols is spot on @Katrijn

    Try to step back and look at your organization with "new eyes". Obviously I don't know your organization, but I do know that if you've been there for a reasonable duration, then you start to see every possible shortcoming. You may indeed be correct and your organization may be displaying a lie vs what actually takes place. However, what I have found in most cases, is that...
    * Many organizations have been around a long time..plodding a long with some degree of success...keeping customers reasonably satisfied.
    * Regardless of any faults, the organizations thrive and customers aren't pulling business.
    * Specific individual(s) are tasked with overseeing the compliance of the QMS (not how it should be but it happens), and generally....
    a) Understand the requirements better than top management.
    b) Get frustrated trying to push the rope.
    c) Put forth considerable personal effort to ensure all is running compliant to the standard.
    d) become the whipping boy/girl during the audits

    Again, I have no way of knowing if this describes the situation in your organization, but if it does, then you may simply be jaded. As @Andy Nichols said,
    ISO 9001:2015 gives a range of discretion by the organization (within the broad framework of the standard).

    So, be encouraged !!... and try to look at your organization through new eyes (i.e. the eyes of an auditor who is ONLY looking to see if the organization meets the requirements or not.)

    If all I have presumptuously stated above is NOT correct and your organization does NOT support the QMS and those tasked with working within the requirements and causes you/others to compromise INTEGRITY, then.....maybe this organization is not the place to be.

    Hope this helps.

    Be well.
     
    John C. Abnet, Jan 28, 2020
    #5
    Nicholas777, Katrijn and Andy Nichols like this.
  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    827
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Sounds to me like you have a vision of quality utopia. As John indicated, if the company has been around a while they can't be "that bad." Quality guys (and gals) always want perfection. CEOs want functional.
     
    Golfman25, Jan 28, 2020
    #6
    Nicholas777 and John C. Abnet like this.
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,227
    Likes Received:
    2,613
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    "Some"...
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 28, 2020
    #7
  8. Katrijn

    Katrijn Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2019
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    7
    John, thanks.

    Last week I had a severe car crash and it made me realize that life is too short to accept being 'jaded' (or even worse) by the work I used to like.

    I have given my notice...
    Time to do some self reflection
     
    Katrijn, Jan 31, 2020
    #8
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  9. Katrijn

    Katrijn Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2019
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Golfman,

    I don't want perfection. Far from it.
    Call me a CEO if you have to :p, but I want a functional system where I can communicate with colleagues on plans and progress and feedback... Where everybody knows what (s)he should do and what other people do... where proposing a project team and action list doesn't provoke shocked faces...
     
    Katrijn, Jan 31, 2020
    #9
  10. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    516
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Upper Midwest- USA
    Wow ! Hopefully you are doing well and no lasting problems from the accident.
     
    John C. Abnet, Jan 31, 2020
    #10
    Nicholas777 likes this.
  11. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    329
    Likes Received:
    232
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Location:
    Northeast USA
    mmm, that sounds like the fore-mentioned utopia...
    I can't imagine that in a company more than 50 people...and even with 50, it would cost over $100,000 per year out of profits to have a chance...

    I've worked with 3M, Caterpillar, DOD, DuPont, Tyson, Google...none of them remotely come close to that description...life just doesn't work that way.

    Kudos for striving for what lights you up...I did the same (now in a tiny company)...I hope you find what you are truly looking for.
     
    Eric Twiname, Feb 3, 2020
    #11