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Do Auditor Qualifications Affect the Audit Report and Outcome?

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Katrijn, May 6, 2019.

  1. Katrijn

    Katrijn Member

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    We don't know, because we don't have the full text of the audit report, the maintenance/testing procedures, records of such ...
    Are the emergency lights even covered by facility/maintenance procedures? And if not, why? ... There are just too many questions to give an informed opinion.

    If what you say here was exactly the case, then there is no reason for a NC. But a valid reason to fix the light is simply that it is broken ... ISO or not... just fix the bloody thing.

    Auditors always have the nasty habit of spotting things that just happen to be 'wrong' that specific day only... Annoying? Yes! But consider your battles. This NC is easily rectified. In my opinion not worth the hassle of an appeal.
     
    Katrijn, May 6, 2019
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  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree Katrijn, with your thoughts and comments. However, I'd "appeal" because, as with many similar such "findings", each individual client sees things through their eyes (only). If we were to look at this from the CB management's perspective, they would see this auditor going to multiple clients reporting similar symptoms and NOT indicating what was the process at issue. Similar symptoms are frequently reported - auditors find "pattern" issues which they make into ncs.

    What I'm attempting to point out is that without clients pushing back on such insignificant findings, the bar on auditors will not be moved higher. No news isn't good news in the auditing world. Yes, the auditor could have pointed it out and listened to the response (much as Tony and you are suggesting - it needs fixing). But to have wasted the clients time and money by formally reporting this as a non-conformity, requiring it to be addressed as a corrective action and such like is costing clients and when added up, it makes certification a non-sense. In more than 25 years in the industry, I for one have noticed, things have slid in the wrong direction...
     
    Andy Nichols, May 6, 2019
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    For clarification, Martin. Are you qualified as an auditor of hospitals? Are they one of the SIC/NAICS codes which qualify you?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 6, 2019
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  4. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe @Martin.suda is implying or claiming any such qualifications @Andy Nichols (qualifications which I also do not possess).
    It appears Martin is simply providing an opinion based on the limited information that has been provided to us.

    I will say, @Martin.suda that none of us really have enough information to make an accurate judgment. However, it is important to remember that we must audit to/consider only the standard and not allow our emotions (based on the terms such as "High Risk Ward" or otherwise) cloud our conclusions.

    Hope this helps.
    Be well.
     
    John C. Abnet, May 6, 2019
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  5. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Actually it's not "an easy fix," because the finding is incomplete. The issue may not be the broken light itself. The issue may be maintenance related. So without looking at maintenance issues -- last time it was checked, has it been reported as broken, how long has it been out, etc. -- you can't really "fix" anything. If the light went out this morning, maintenance was called, part is on order, etc. it is completely different issue than if it's 10 months old. To me, the auditor gets an incomplete.
     
    Golfman25, May 6, 2019
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    As you will know, competency is based on experience etc. Do you have experience in a) hospitals or b) building maintenance, for example. If I might give an example by way of explanation, a company in the medical device cnc plastics machining industry was audited by a CB auditor who had zero experience of a) machine shops and b) precision/cnc machining. As a result, the auditor was totally out of their depth and wrote ridiculous non-conformities. Yes, the CB was in error of sending an unqualified auditor but the auditor should have known their own capabilities, not JUST ISO 9001:2015.
     
    Andy Nichols, May 6, 2019
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  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    So, by extension only then? You don't have work experience in this (hospital) environment? It's only because of auditing a client who works in the hospital? If I understand correctly, a CB qualifies their auditors based on the auditors' specific industrial experience - which is also part of being an Exemplar Global Lead Assessor (or IRCA etc). As an example, if you haven't worked in the telecoms industry, or auto industry, or aerospace industry, you can't be considered by the CB to audit - auditing a client in that industry doesn't count as work experience, if I recall correctly. I believe another of our CB auditor colleagues, Jennifer Kirley would validate this. Jennifer?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 6, 2019
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? I beg to differ. You absolutely MUST have work experience to be an auditor for TL9000, for IATF 16949 and for AS9100D/AS9120B etc. I wonder if you have worked for IAF member accredited CBs. If so, are you familiar with the office based management processes?

    Or, from your earlier posts are you NOT a lead auditor? You've simply been a member of a team and the choice of what is a finding is the Lead Auditor's call, including how it's graded? To be a Lead, you'd have to have work experience in hospital management systems it seems to me. Or am I missing something here?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 7, 2019
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  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly so! Per my previous post, this is an auditor who doesn't understand their job is to audit a management system. Auditors who simply create a non-conformity and grade it without digging into the management system should revisit their understanding of their assignment.
     
    Andy Nichols, May 7, 2019
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  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? So how does an (any) auditor become competent? If an ISO auditor (CB) goes to a fabrication shop where parts are MIG and TIG welded, that auditor doesn't have to have any experience of welding? If it's a food manufacturing audit, an ISO 9001 auditor doesn't have to have any experience working in a food factory? If the company develops software, an ISO 9001 auditor doesn't have to have experience of the software development process(es)?

    Who says?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
    Andy Nichols, May 7, 2019
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  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You aren't aware of the CB's "Scope of Accreditation"? That covers what they have the capabilities to audit. It doesn't include "thousands of different industries" for exactly that reason.

    You may wish to redact this.
     
    Andy Nichols, May 7, 2019
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  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Hardly, since you haven't identified which CBs you work for and not all CBs are as diligent as to ensure only competent auditors perform their audits.
     
    Andy Nichols, May 7, 2019
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