As a Tier-2 supplier...

Hi there

My company is a tier-2 supplier to an automotive OEM. We used to be certified ISO-TS16949 until IATF disputed our eligibility in 2012, and we could not get certified anymore. Until now, we are only bound by the Supplier Quality requirements manual that our customer communicates to us. Recently we noticed an increase of requirements relating to the management of our own suppliers (tier-3) in our customer 2017 Supplier Quality requirements manual with many references to CQI-19.

So several questions:
1- As Tier-2 supplier, we do not qualify for IATF 16949:2016, correct?
2- Are there more requirements for Tier-2 in the new IATF 16949:2016?
3- What is the impact of the 2016 standard on us as Tier-2?

We sure are thriving to serve our customer but not at all cost so we want to negotiate the terms of the Supplier Quality requirements and make exclusions to what we judge not reasonable.
Thanks for your advice on this
NAK

 

IATF elegibility has nothing to do with your tier level. It has to do with what you do and your customer base. You have to be a manufacturer of automotive stuff. What do you do?

 

We sell industrial and speciality gases to a whole range of automotive component manufacturers (lighting, semiconductors, safety system). The semiconductors companies are the ones sending us Supplier Quality requirements manuals to comply with, that contain all the AIAG standards.

When two of our affiliates lost their ISO TS certification in 2012, I was told by their quality managers at the time that it was because they have no direct automotive customers. I will fetch for the official letter sent by their certifying body.

 

Yeah. Doesn't sound like you are IATF (TS) applicable. And if they said so, consider yourself lucky. The new standard its a real bear.

What seems to by happening is that your customers have to engage in supplier development and somehow you are on the list. They are flowing down the AIAG CQ requirements to you, which since you're not automotive eligible is dubious at best. Most likely the guy send this stuff to you has no clue what you do and thus the applicability.

Are you ISO 9000 certified? If so, that should take care of it. If not, you might want to do it. Much easier than TS.

 

Hi Golfman25. You are exactly right, they are flowing down the AIAG Core Quality tools to us and also some CQI (like CQI-19).
Can you elaborate on "dubious at best"?

We are ISO 900 certified and we have company internal standards which requires from our facilities to implement Metrology and Process Control Systems on our gas manufacturing operations. These company standards requirements are very close to that of APQP, MSA, FMEA and SPC.

Only we do not want our people to spend time submitting and managing PPAP level 2 or 3. It seems that this process is a resource eater!

What can we "oppose" to this type of PPAP request, which to me in our case, seems quite unreasonable?

 

Well, I assume you're supplying some type of process gases -- like for welding, or propane for lift trucks, or something like that. Nothing that actually goes into a automobile. If so, I would use that as your "out." IATF/TS is very product based -- you provide a seat, a fender, a wheel, brake system, etc. Something that actually goes into a car. Since you provide no such thing, I would argue these requirements aren't applicable to you. You should just be able to provide your ISO cert. As for PPAP, you don't provide production parts -- so yes I would "oppose" doing it. If they want something, you could always use your own documentation. It just sounds like you are being lumped in with all the guys who provide parts and getting caught up in all the nonsense. Good luck.

 

Golfman, we also supply gases (doping gases) that are integrated into chips or sensors that go into a component of a car such as a speed controller. Can we "out"?

 

I think you could argue it both ways? Is your gas left in the chip or sensor? The fact that IATF says you are not eligible seems to indicate you're out.

 

Agree that we could argue both ways.
Yes the gas is left on the chip
Yes it indicates we are out.
Thanks