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What's in/out of scope?

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Andy Nichols, Aug 4, 2023.

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  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    If a facility is IATF 16949 for "Product X" and this appears on their certificate, and they also make "Product Y" which is also an automotive product (but different to "Product X") doesn't that have to be included in the scope of the QMS and also the IATF certification? #AskingForAFriend
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 4, 2023
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  2. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the scope more about the process vs. the product? If both products go through the same process as listed in the scope, I wouldn't think anything would change.
     
    qmr1976, Aug 4, 2023
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Good point, but no - Totally different processes in this case. "Product X" is distinctly - and very, very - different, to "Product Y"...

    According to ISO 9001, 4.3 the scope is supposed to "state the types of products and services covered..." Indeed, since buyers are supposed to source automotive suppliers with ISO or IATF certificates, it's in the interests of the organization to be clear what it makes, which can be an automotive product.
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 4, 2023
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  4. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    I think I recall reading somewhere that all automotive products/process should be listed in the scope and audited. This was actually a nightmare for us as we had products from a name brand tier 1 automotive supplier, but several of which never even saw the road (they where for off road use). It was many years ago, I'd have to look it up again to be sure.
     
    Golfman25, Aug 4, 2023
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Most likely the "Rules" handbook...
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 4, 2023
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  6. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    For ISO 9001: “Scope of the QMS” as per clause 4.3 is a bit different from “scope of certification”. The International Accreditation Forum Auditing Practices Group Guidance on Scope and Applicability provided this statement:

    “For many organizations the QMS applies to all its products and services, includes all the processes performed at defined locations with established resources including people and the whole of the organization.”

    “The scope of certification is derived from the scope of the QMS and is dependent on what the organization decides to have certified. This scope is used to communicate the certification status of the organization’s QMS to relevant interested parties. Sometimes the scope of certification can be smaller than the scope of the QMS and special attention needs to be given to these cases.”

    “The terms scope of the QMS and certification scope are often used interchangeably due to the fact that in many situations they are equivalent. This can lead to confusion when an organization has chosen to limit its QMS scope to only certain processes, products or services.”    ​

    IMHO, by using the same concept, Product X and Y should be included in the scope of the QMS but an organization may elect to only include Product X in the IATF certification (probably due to a client that subscribes to IATF).

    However, according to the Rules for Achieving and Maintaining IATF Recognition (5th Edition) – section 1.0 Eligibility for Certification to IATF 16949:

    “If a site supplies to a customer requiring third party certification to IATF 16949, then all automotive customers of the site shall be included in the scope of audit.”​

    This causes the confusion.
     
    tony s, Aug 12, 2023
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