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What changes do you expect for ISO/TS 16949:2016?

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Kees deWit, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. Kees deWit

    Kees deWit New Member

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    The latest is that AITF / IAOB and its members are working on a new version (same format as ISO 9001:2015). The AIAG had a blog post asking for input.

    What changes do you think are necessary and what new things will become requirements?
     
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  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Remove the need for the internal auditors to know TS! Remove the product audit requirements from the internal audit section and move it to product measurement.
     
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  3. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    It will be nice to see some detailed requirements on Maintenance, spare management, etc - has such an important relevance to Product quality. How about having a mandatory requirement to record 4M change points. Capacity management is another underestimated area in the current version despite being a huge Business interest.
     
  4. Stijloor

    Stijloor New Member

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    ISO 9001:2015 is not very specific regarding requirements. A lot is left open for auditor interpretation. Considering the issues we have with ISO/TS 16949:2009 interpretations, the CSR's, and the "Rules 4th Ed., I can not wait for the fireworks to start. I hope for the best of course...:)
     
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  5. Tom Waite

    Tom Waite Member

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    This will really heat things up and I am afraid there will be more opinions on changes than actual changes which will delay this even longer. It will be very interesting to see if some of the built-in (non-value added) task master items are taken out. I am all for control and consistency of process but some of the things in TS go beyond value added control or improvement.
     
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  6. Howard Atkins

    Howard Atkins Member

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    More than changes in the standard there is a need for the oversight bodies to be more harmonious.
    There are big differences between the way in which SMMT, the UK, and IAOB, the US, act an perform their oversight in terms of requirements.
    To often the actions of the IATF are reactive and they have taken negative action rather than constructive actions.

    I am not optimistic as to the adaptation
     
  7. Chris Glover

    Chris Glover Active Member

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    Hope for the best, prepare for the worst...
     
  8. Cathey

    Cathey New Member

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    I hope to see more emphases on change management/configuration management. The risk is too high to have a sloppy process in this area.
     
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  9. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    :)
    Please suggest that support processes at remote location be reclassified as "outsourced" so we do not have to travel overseas to conduct Internal Audit twice within the 3-year cycle. Examples are: Customer Service Center, Corporate head office, Sales, and Distribution Center. Under ISO9001 we do not need to consider the processes outside the manufacturing facility. ISO9001 is simplier than TS. Thank you.
     
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  10. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Andy. It appears that even the Audit facilitator does not go deep into Product Audit. That makes Internal Audit training not effective. Also remove the manufacturing process audit and replace it with a Risk Based audit of the business management system. Thank you.
     
  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    It's already in there! "Status and importance" - means the same thing. The issue is that IATF didn't explain that and clearly people don't get it when they only do one or two internal audits a year.
     
  12. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you
    Thank you Andy. Product audit is sometimes missed when doing process audit.
     
  13. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I was informed that some of the TS 16949 auditors have started to give up auditing because TS is a very "un-friendly" standard. They do not want to be witness-audited either. As an internal auditor, I find that to be somewhat true. In addition, going overseas to audit the support processes is not very cost effective. Why don't IATF change their definition of processes conducted somewhere else and just require them to get their own ISO9001:2015 certificate? Other than the italics, which specific TS sub-clause calls for periodic review of CSR? I have to create a matrix (thank you Elsmar Cove TS experts) just to satisfy the auditor. But we never look at that matrix on a regular basis except during he Internal/External audit. Can we just be audited to the VD standard in order to match our European counterparts? Thank you.:)
     
  14. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Remove the requirement for supplier PPAP. If they have ISO certificate that should be enough, isn't it? Anyway my company is just a supplier of bulk commodities.
     
  15. Tom Waite

    Tom Waite Member

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    That's been one of the long standing complaints about ISO and TS - it does not matter to most organizations if you have achieved registration to the standard, they still want all documentation as if you did not have it - at most it stops them from coming in and auditing you because they accept your registration in stead of the auditing - however, in a lot of cases it does not even stop that.

    The statements I have heard from a lot of customers is that "Your ISO and TS registration is for your organization, not ours - so we still treat you as if you did not have it."
     
  16. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100%. We have an OEM customer who, despite our extensive documentation, still treats us like we do not have a TS16949 certification. But we are still OK. We all share the same problem in our TS certification but we have a resource in this website that will provide us with the help we need.

    "Stay close to the rock", Wisdom
     
  17. Chris Glover

    Chris Glover Active Member

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    After looking at and thinking about the new ISO standard I am of the mind that the new version of TS will put back most of what the new version took out..the required documents, the need for a management rep..
    At the end of the day TS requirements will be very close to what they currently are..if not more prescriptive.
     
  18. lucian

    lucian New Member

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    fully agree regarding product audit. No value adding. If the daily, weekly or monthly checks are already in place does not make any sense to repeat all of these. In our company we are struggling with this. Only a time consumption with out any value added.
     
  19. Tom Waite

    Tom Waite Member

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    Welcome and congrats on your first post Lucian!

    The focus needs to be on value added requirements, however, I can also see the need to monitor and improve when the opportunities arise. I think some companies want to claim little in TS adds value, and that is just code for not wanting to do it. If they focus on value added business processes, things that will make you a better company, I would think it would be hard to argue against it. The problem is when someone comes in for a few days a year and tries to tell an organization what would be good for their business, especially on a subjective interpretation, can be challenging.

    The challenge has always been the whole trust but verify approach. The only two things I have ever seen a TS cert do for a company is stop "some" customer audits and get your foot in a door with potential new customers. However, even then most will want to trust but verify. From a business perspective, the cost of TS can be seen as an expense with no direct impact to the bottom line. That's where as Quality Professionals we have to continually sell the advantages of process control as the mechanism to impacting the bottom line.
     
  20. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    Please clarify what you mean by daily, weekly and monthly "checks". In my mind, these are a layer of internal audits. Organizations that define internal audits as checking conformance to documented requirements are missing the bigger picture (and value) in my mind. In my experience, audits are layered. There are daily routine audits - checks that results are conforming to expected levels and activities conformed to - and there are process audits - larger, overarching checks that evaluate inputs and outputs to a process - and there are system audits - the whole organization's "functionability" and conformance to a standard taken as a snapshot in time.

    Most organizations do system audits (even if they break it down into smaller chunks and call them "process audits"). To me, you need all these levels - it's like the human body where daily routine audits are the red and white blood cells, process audits are the functioning of the individual organs and the system audit is the body as a whole. This allows an organization to truly identify strengths and opportunities.

    I should point out that I'm not familiar with TS, but my guess is that your daily, weekly and monthly checks could potentially be how you audit product quality. So all you're doing is documenting the system your organization already has in place...no need to do it as a separate auditing function.

    Or am I completely mis-understanding the situation?
     

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