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Turtle diagram for processes

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Leon Oosthuizen, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Leon Oosthuizen

    Leon Oosthuizen New Member

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    Will it be sufficient to show the external auditor with this type of "turtle" and content for each process? I will be including each clause number into each description as well.
    Examples and comments are welcome.
     

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    Leon Oosthuizen, Jan 9, 2018
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  2. Serious Man

    Serious Man Active Member

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    I suggest - do not think about external auditor, think about requirements and how they can help your organisation.
    Vital item of turtle diagram is turtle itself. I do not see guts, just limbs.

    Additionally some items are improperly placed, e.g. raw materials.
     
    Serious Man, Jan 9, 2018
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed with Serious Man's comment about showing any external auditor anything. What they "accept" is open to too much variation in their understanding.

    I would never, ever suggest using Turtles for anything, except soup. I've yet, in 20+ years, seen an effective QMS documented in such a fashion. They miss a key point which is the sequence of the interacting (mainly support) processes. Filling "buckets" labeled "Who", "With what" and so on isn't how an effective QMS works. A far better method is to develop a proper process map (NOT a flow chart) or value stream map (like a Lean implementation would) to see the way a process actually works - warts and all. Only this provides a true picture of the process and will show improvement needs.
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 9, 2018
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  4. Raffy

    Raffy Member

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    With regard to turtle diagram, is it a requirement as part of the Internal Audit process to use? If not what could be the alternative that I may use aside from checklist? Please advice. Thank you very much in advance.
    Best,
    Raffy
     
    Raffy, Jan 15, 2018
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    No. You can use whatever you wish. I find just marking up a procedure or process map etc with a highlighter works (but I've been auditing for 30 years)
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 15, 2018
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  6. Raffy

    Raffy Member

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    Hi Andy, thank you for your immediate response. In marking a procedure or process map, will the said documented information enough evidence to show to an auditor?
    Thanks in advance.
    Best,
    Raffy
     
    Raffy, Jan 15, 2018
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  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Who knows what an auditor will be satisfied with? It's impossible to tell. Better ask yourself, is this going to be suitable for us to do an effective audit? Doing things to satisfy an auditor is the wrong goal.
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 15, 2018
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