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Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by jamescrockford, Sep 26, 2017.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes. It's worked for organizations I know. I'm not certain a spreadsheet is necessary, because although there may be a number of issues which come from the SWOT, it's going to be pretty obvious which ones need a plan to be worked on. The tracking etc I'd have thought could be achieved through the management review process. All the posts I've seen where risk registers and such like are mentioned, sounds to me as if the whole thing is being approached from the point of view of a risk management professional (aka ISO 31000) which can help make a mountain from small creature hills.
     
  2. jamescrockford

    jamescrockford Member

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    And that's precisely what I want to avoid. I don't think we need a complicated risk methodology...
    So what you are saying is...identify the risks that require treatment, then discuss the plans to address and then review the actions taken at management review (forming part of the report)
    Seems like all of this can be documented in the management review minutes and no need for standalone documents/spreadsheets!
     
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You got it!
     
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  4. jamescrockford

    jamescrockford Member

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    Great...we will go with that then.

    Onto the next one...4.4...I'm going to update our process interaction diagram but had then intended to produce a turtle diagram for the key processes to include metrics and associated risks but you seem heavily against them. We have procedures for these key processes and I had intended on the turtle diagram referring to these and so the turtle is essentially a cover document, simply an overview. My thoughts are that it will get the managers thinking about the process overall including risks and measures. How would you address this if not with a turtle?
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    By getting them together and mapping the process steps from receipt of an inquiry/enquiry, the lights start to come on when they see the slow-mo train wreck going on in front of their eyes. This fact alone is ONE of the reasons I'm vehemently against using turtles as they become a simple form filling exercise and none of the "wrinkles" of the management system are brought to the surface. I would almost guarantee using turtles will NOT bring about the sea-change needed by ISO 9001:2015.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  6. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree that simple is best. Use a spreadsheet if you are comfortable doing so; determining what risks to take action on could be based on severity evaluation, but the organization can also decide to act on risks based on preference or available opportunities. Identifying them as low/medium/high before and after action could help show effectiveness of actions taken to address risk, ad let us remember that data is a required input for management review.
     
  7. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with Andy, that turtles are not enough by themselves. Organizations need to understand the critical ways processes depend upon each other for success.

    I have client organizations that do a good of job making turtles, but make low-value process interaction diagrams and do little to understand or use them. Without a good understanding of sequence and interaction, the turtles themselves are of little practical organizational use.
     
  8. jamescrockford

    jamescrockford Member

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    Okay, so next question...what makes a good interaction diagram?
    Could the process interaction diagram have links off it with metrics/risks for each process? The risks being how each stage could cause issues for their internal customer perhaps?
    Also, how can I get the managers thinking metrics/KPI's and risks/opportunities and recording the same?
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The answer is...whatever your leadership say it is. A Process Map comprising the basic "Core" or value adding processes is what's really desirable. The support processes do just that, so they are in the "background" as it were. So, depending on how your biz operates, it can be <RFQ><Order Processing><Design><Purchasing><Manufacture> and so on (recognizing that they aren't sequential) your process interaction will represent the 30,000ft view. Get your leadership to map it! It's a great way to see what they *think* happens!
     
  10. jamescrockford

    jamescrockford Member

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    And how can I incorporate metrics and risks for each core/key process?
     
  11. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    You don't need to incorporate them, you need to have them, establish awareness of them and track them.
     
  12. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    There is a myth that you even need a diagram. I have seen process sequence and interaction described very nicely in a table.

    Those who are most comfortable with visuals could do well to craft it in such a way as to recognize that some processes support every area of the system and top management supports all of it. A nested diagram can do that.

    As Andy has pointed out, this is much more than a diagram. It is supposed to be a way for the organization to recognize how everything fits together. Too often my people just copy a picture from somewhere to trot out for the auditor.
     
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  13. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    To echo Jennifer, trotting out something pretty for the auditor is an approach taken by some organizations. This tends to support the statement that our role/department is "necessary overhead." I have actually been called that before. I've also been called a "good cop" and, perhaps this was the nicest description "the conscience of the organization."

    At the end of the day, however, we want to add value to the organization. Everyone else seems to exist to do this, so why should we be any different?

    I like process maps. Not turtles - to be honest, I've never quite wrapped my brain around how to use them in a meaningful (to the organization) way. I like process maps with swimlanes that denote who is responsible and activities that detail what is done by that Responsible. I also use these maps as the opportunity to show the indicators and control items associated with the process. This allows for:
    • Initial focus point within a process if desired outcomes are not achieved with the indicators
    • Potential bottlenecks within the process (can be seen by a cluster of indicators)
    • Potential improvement points for efficiency and effectiveness

    Process maps such as these can be excellent training tools especially for those of us who like visuals and they can be as high-level (e.g., department-based) or as low-level (e.g. job title) as you would like - whatever works best. They show how people and departments are not silos and neither are processes. People and departments interact and these typle of process map shows how the outputs for one can become the inputs for another.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  14. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Well stated RoxaneB . Visio (Excel also works) is an excellent tool for creating these type of cross-functional flow charts with swim lanes.
     
  15. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    Thank you, John.

    I use Visio, but because not everyone has it, I uploaded a .pdf version of the template I use when first starting to map out a process.
     
  16. jamescrockford

    jamescrockford Member

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    Hi all,

    Quick question...is it worth documenting company mission, vision, values? Say for example in a quality manual.
     
  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Why not? I've seen some good stuff contained in these statements. Often better than their (required) quality policy...
     
  18. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Some examples:
    upload_2017-11-10_13-27-16.png upload_2017-11-10_13-28-42.png
     
  19. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Since we have established our objectives that are compatible with the strategic directions (see clause 5.1.1b of ISO 9001) and where the strategic directions are established based on the organization's vision and core values (see clause 5.2.1d of ISO/TS 9002:2016) - we find them worth mentioning in the quality manual.

    An example of the alignment from mission, vision to objectives:
    upload_2017-11-10_13-55-26.png
     
  20. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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