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The training of TS16949 internal auditors - What are the requirements?

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Carol Robinson, Dec 2, 2015.

  1. Carol Robinson

    Carol Robinson New Member

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    Do internal auditors have to take a specific course to be trained to conduct internal audits as required by some requirement?? What is this requirement?

    Does the trainer of internal auditors have to meet some specific requirement(s)?
    Note: I realize that the trainer should be experienced in both the automotive standard and auditing as a basic requirement.​

    Our auditors took an Exemplar Global lead auditor certified course (ISO 9001 with emphasis on TS16949) and the certification body auditor said the course was "invalid." I do not understand to what requirement this audit nonconformity was based.

    Can anyone provide some information here? Thanks!
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Carol! Sad to tell that, despite the fact that I had attended the AIAG training courses on TS, my credentials were challenged during a client's certification audit, by a picky auditor. It's simply low hanging fruit and of no true significance - worse, it can be looked at as a case of sour grapes, because the TS auditors are put "through the mill" to qualify and some see that being flowed down to internal auditors. Now, at one time, the FORD customer specifics REQUIRED internal auditors to be trained in the core tools etc. And, by that, the instructor had to know it too. Excel Partnership had all that - in a very high level detail - in their TS LA course. I taught it for a number of years. Yet, oddly this one auditor didn't "like it". For heaven's sake! Where does it stop? Who trained the trainer? The folks at AIAG in the day weren't stellar - as I remember - and could only teach out of the book (their program was famous for that) with little practical experience being used.

    As far as the plain TS requirements, there's nothing specific about a specific course either in the spec or the rules (does the auditor do work for Plexus or the AIAG, perhaps?)
     
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  3. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    The TS auditor is crying "sour grapes" because obviously you passed the training administered by Exemplar Global and this auditor did not. I suggest that you escalate this auditor comment to the CB and have your auditor replaced. Exemplar Global is ANSI or IAOB approved. It sounds like Plexus is competing with Exemplar Global for the client's business. I will never take a class administered by Plexus. Why make life miserable when I can accomplish the same goal with Exemplar Global?
     
  4. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    According to ISO/TS 16949:2009 Clause 8.2.2.5 - "The organization shall have internal auditors who are qualified to audit the requirements of this Technical Specification (see 6.2.2.2)".

    and then Clause 6.2.2.2, at the last paragraph, says "Personnel performing specific assigned tasks shall be qualified, as required, with particular attention to the satisfaction of customer requirements".

    If your company is under the supply chain of Ford, their customer-specific requirements, effective November 1, 2015, says:

    8.2.2.5 Internal Auditor Qualifications
    Internal quality management system auditors shall be qualified as stated below.
    • Be trained and evaluated in the following areas:
    • The Technical Specification ISO/TS 16949
    • Related core tools (e.g. APQP, SPC, MSA, FMEA, PPAP)
    • Applicable customer-specific requirements, and
    • The automotive process approach to auditing.
    And, as part of the training, participates in practice sessions equivalent to one audit day in:
    • Case study audits, and/or
    • Auditing role plays/simulations, and/or
    • On-site audits
    Note: Core tools and customer specifics can be taught by company or industry recognized experts/specialists.

    Or, have conducted at least 5 internal ISO/TS 16949 internal audits during the prior 24 months under the supervision of an auditor trained as specified in the section above. The audits will need to have covered all requirements of the technical specification and all processes directly impacting Ford product quality at least once over the 5 or more audits.


    Internal Auditor Trainer Qualifications
    • The training listed above shall be conducted by trainer(s) who have themselves successfully met the requirements of this section.
    • Process and Product audits may be conducted by appropriate process specialists from the affected areas without full quality management auditor training.
    If your company is under the supply chain of GM, their customer-specific requirements, effective July of 2015, says:

    4.1.10 Internal Auditor Qualifications

    Internal auditors should be qualified as recommended in ISO 19011:2011 – Sections 7, Competence and Evaluation of Auditors, In addition internal auditors should be competent in understanding and applying the Process Approach of Auditing (See “Process Approach”, Section 0.2 of ISO/TS 16949:2009), Core Tools including PPAP and other reference manuals including APQP, MSA, SPC, and FMEA and GM Customer Specifics, as applicable.

    NOTE: A process and plan with implementation monitoring for assurance of qualified internal auditors is evidence of compliance.


    Additional requirements are given in GM's CSR section 4.1.11.1 for customer acceptance of 2nd party audits and criteria for approval.

    Other OEMs may have their own version of CSR but I guess your auditor might be referring to these two CSRs.
     
  5. QMS auditor

    QMS auditor Member

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    Just wondering, if anyone knows ISO/TS16949 internal audit can be carried out by a 3rd party like Intertek ?
     
  6. Englishman Abroad

    Englishman Abroad Member

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    Hello QMS auditor,

    Yes, you can use a 3rd party auditor from a consultancy company, providing they can show the items listed in the Ford CSR (if you have Ford as a Customer) - if not the Ford requirements are a good common sense place to start.

    You may have to ask for the 3rd party consultants training records
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Just for clarification - a "3rd party" is the (correct) term given to a Certification Body auditor. A consultant is a supplier of services and is, therefore, considered a "2nd party". People get really confused over 2nd/3rd party this and that and who can do what. A "3rd party" auditor can ONLY do internal audits (as a consultant) pif they aren't engaged in any certification activities at the same client for at least 2 years.
     
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    A CB doesn't carry out internal audits, the process is often different. You'd be better off finding a qualified (consultant) person who has done internal audits for organizations. CB auditors typically do compliance audits to ISO 9001 for certification. That can be different to internal audits (done right)
     
  9. Mukesh Sharma

    Mukesh Sharma Member

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    hello all

    i want to do ISO/TS16949:2009 Lead Auditor course, can somebuddy guide me that from where i can do this. and i am already go through the whole standard and started implementation but it does not not work. So now i decide to do this course pl let me know what is the right choice.

    Thanks
     
  10. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    You came to the right place. Also AIAG conduct such training through Plexus. I gave you the best recommendation. If I could just go back to my humble beginnings as internal auditor I would go this route.
     
  11. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Good luck. 2009 is obsolete. Everything is being converted to the 2015 version. You might be better off waiting a few more months.
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Not yet, it isn't and he'll still have until 2018 to make the transition if that's what he wants. He may need auditor training NOW! There's a good chance that, given the way the automotive requirements work, it could well be that many of the ISO 9001:2008 requirements will remain intact, too. Quality manuals, procedures, management rep and so on.
     
  13. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    I suppose if he has nothing but time and money, he can train twice in the next 12-18 months. According to the IATF, there should be an announcement about revised training in Q3 2016.
     
  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    In all reality, while the standard might change, why would the "automotive process approach" to internal audits, plus all the other audit stuff, change that much to make anyone sit through yet another lead auditor course? Once you know how to audit and have developed some experience, why does going to yet more training automatically become the only course of action?
     
  15. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Because you need a fancy piece of paper to show your 3rd party auditor. :) (We got dinged because our internal auditors weren't "trained" to the 2009 revisions -- much of which was immaterial to an internal audit.) And the ISO 2015 revisions have some newer/different stuff. Right now, we don't even know what the requirements for internal auditor training will be in the 2016 version. My only point is to suggest that the OP does a little homework before doing training which may not be all that useful in the near future.
     
  16. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Which auditor? Name and shame...
     
  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Advocating a course of action based on some bizarre event such as this isn't a good strategy in my experience. Maybe your auditor was looking to enhance his revenue by sending clients to another training course... Not a really effective reason IMHO.
     
  18. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, but you miss the point to my reply to the OP. He's smart enough to decide.
     
  19. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, I didn't miss anything.
     
  20. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Going to a lead auditor course tells you NOTHING about why an implementation failed or how to do it correctly. Auditing is auditing, not how to set up and run an ISO/TS 16949 QMS. Find an implementation course or a consultant who has experience with TS implementation.
     

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