Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Quality Objectives or KPI's?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Andy Nichols, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    I read posts and discussions centered on KPIs for the various processes of the Quality Management System. Indeed, I downloaded a 3 page listing of KPIs which was offered up by a CB auditor as "useful".

    I'd offer to people that KPIs are NOT what's required. Quality Objectives Are. An organization should embrace two fundamental concepts and set objectives from there:

    "Right First Time" and "On Time".

    These are foundational and can be applied to any process:

    Quoting, Order Entry, Supplier performance, Engineering Design, Manufacturing, Training, so on and so forth.

    The application of KPIs (such as were listed on these 3 pages) - without reference back to these fundamentals - is of little value in determining the performance of a process.

    Be careful what you select.
     
  2. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    912
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    A term that my father applied when he was CEO for an aerospace company was OTIS - On Time. In Spec. This implies right the first time.

    Any staff member - be they an operator on the shop floor or senior management - who would not embrace the idea of OTIS found him/herself looking for another position. In fact, he even terminated a senior manager who was a family member of the company's founding family (lots of family members on the company Board) because the senior manager thought OTIS didn't apply to him.

    Every subsequent KPI developed had to have an impact on the company's ability to be OTIS. No connection? Then it wasn't a KEY performance indicator...it was just an indicator of something.
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    I like your Dad!
     
    Travis Dutiel likes this.
  4. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    912
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I rather expected you to say something like "Gee, now I know where you get it from." :rolleyes:

    When I tell colleagues that supper in my house, while growing up, involved process maps, development of standards, PDCA, financial statements, action plans, ROI calculations, risk assessments, metrics, etc., they slowly nod as if finally understanding why I am the way I am. *lol*
     
    John C. Abnet and Travis Dutiel like this.
  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    777
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    After knowing Roxane's father's occupation, my first impression is Roxane's father is rich;)
     
  6. Dobis

    Dobis Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    What is the difference between a SMART quality Objective and KPI .
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"

    KPIs are often plucked out of thin air. They rarely related to what's important about a process's performance. They are measures for their own sake.

    SMART objectives are usually directly relate to a process and its outcome. You understand the acronym "SMART"?
     
  8. Dobis

    Dobis Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Thank Andy
    Yes I do understand the acronym SMART.

    Do you mean that KPI relates more on measures for outcome/product while objectives relates to both process and its outcome
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    KPIs can be all manner of things which might seem to be about a process. Since we are in the ISO 9001:2015 forum, we can discuss two basic principles:

    Right first Time
    One time

    Or, as Roxane's dad says, "OTIS"

    Hence, objectives should be set based upon those two. KPIs should too, but rarely I have seen that happen. If your KPIs are, then you're good to go.
     
  10. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    777
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    Technically, you cannot find the term "KPI" in the current ISO standards (e.g. 9k, 14k, 45k, etc.). The word "indicator" is the preferred term. Although not included in the ISO 9000:2015 vocabulary, ISO 14001:2015 defines indicator as "measurable representation of the condition or status of operations, management or conditions".

    Quality objective, on the other hand is defined as "objective related to quality" where the word objective is defined as "result to be achieved". Thus, if an organization set their objectives, there should be "carefully considered indicators" (see Section 2.4.2 of ISO 9000:2015) to facilitate monitoring. The Annex A.6.2.2 of ISO 45001:2018 also mentioned this statement when planning to achieve OH&S objectives: "When practicable, each objective should be associated with an indicator which can be strategic, tactical or operational".

    Andy is right that "SMART objectives are usually directly related to a process and its outcome". That's the reason why Clause 4.4.1 started by asking the organization to (a) determine first the outputs expected from the process before (c) determining the related performance indicators needed for the effective operation and control of the process.
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  11. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    Tony's, in this part"Andy is right that "SMART objectives are usually directly related to a process and its outcome".
    Don't you think that one objective it could be related to a group of processes, not only to one"
    Are you agree?
     
  12. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    777
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    Yes that is very possible.
     
    Qualmx likes this.
  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,098
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Of course, and on time delivery is a classic example. Every intermediate process can have an effect, which is why simply plucking KPIs out of the air isn't a good way to go.
     
    tony s and Qualmx like this.

Share This Page