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Passed Rev.D / :2015 AS/ISO audit..BUT this is why I drink..

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Zebra418, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Zebra418

    Zebra418 Member

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    We had our transition audit last week and I had to wait a few days to cool off before posting this. I will start off by saying that we “passed” the audit with only 1 (one) issue that the “auditor” decided to let us “slide” on.

    What a freaking joke this audit was. The auditor was experienced auditor with over 25+ years of service under his belt (his words not mine – I thought he needed a bigger belt myself, but that’s a different story).

    He started off by asking who wrote the manual and procedures, and also saying that he dislikes consultants because they just write a mountain of stuff to make it look like they are doing something.

    He proceeded to go through the audit and say he didn’t like something and that we needed to change it. When asked if he could please state where his reasoning was coming from in the ISO/AS he would shoot back, it’s not in there you should have paid the money real auditors paid and then you would have known what they really wanted. (he was upset that I used several methods to understand and learn about the clauses and requirements, on-line, forums, webinars, reading the actual spec’s, Etc..)

    He stated that COTO logs are a waste of time, just say you evaluated the risk and it was ok.

    That you have to have 4 (four) core process in your manual, even though you aren’t required to have a manual. If you don’t have these every Auditor will fail you right off the bat.

    · Production / Inspection

    · Design and Development

    · Sales and Contract Review

    · Purchasing and Receiving

    He told us that our internal auditing was a major write up because it doesn’t meet the requirement. I have to add a photo of it. That we were doing our audits to the wrong thing, he said we should only be doing audits to 7 or 8 items only and the others were a waste of time. (I held my temper and tongue as he was going to pass us as long as I didn’t piss him off)

    He said since he only had a day and half for the transition audit he would let all this slide and when he comes out next time he “hopes” it all is done like he’s suggesting.

    And it went that way through the audit, I didn’t want to penalize the company by getting into it with this gentleman. I wanted to grab him by the ears and feed him the ISO9000:2015 spec page by page and the AS9100 Rev.D in bigger portions, Section by Section.

    He kept saying that we have to make sure that auditors don’t tell you what you need, I was really thinking that maybe I FORGOT to take my meds and it was me that was bat-shit crazy?

    When he would say that something was wrong and I would ask for the section or clause so that I could defend my position if a different auditor had a different interpretation of the rule, I would get the stay out of that it’s not in there. You need to just know what they want and I rely too much on the procedures and specifications..

    The young manager that I am training to take over for me was eating it all up and was mad after the audit because I was “not prepared”. So that is why I sat at home drank Jägermeister, Fireball, and water and ate pizza over the weekend and didn't think of anything else.
     
  2. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    Ahh yes. Its always about passing the audit, regardless of the 'facts', unfortunately. While its nice and supportive to hear from your peers what is actually required and what isnt, the fact is, if you work for a company you are expected to pass the audit and do whatever is required. Its pretty rare that management will back a dispute with the auditor. But Jager does work wonders. Seems the quality guys are always stuck in the middle between knowing what is right and having to do what isnt. Takes a special person to do that I think. As I get older I think that maybe I am not that person anymore...
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I can only hope and wish that someone from ANAB is reading this account... It's not isolated, either. :confused:
     
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  4. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Been down that road. One auditor we used a lot like to "add value" by reviewing and comparing best practices. It wasn't that she was wrong, and she certainly gave good ideas and food for thought as we progressed. But it ground the audit to a halt. Which wasn't necessarily a bad thing because there was less time to check on the real stuff. :)

    But I really see these things happen a lot when auditors get "brainwashed" by their training. He telling you what "they" want. I'll bet "they" don't really have a clue what they want -- if you asked 5 of them what "they" want you'll get 8 answers. One of the advantages you had, it you sought advice from all corners. This auditor was blinded by his training. Hopefully you tell them he's not invited back. Good luck.
     
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Some aren't even open to BE trained...
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd encourage you to lodge a complaint. Do it with the CB and the ANAB. Recently, the IATF published some statistics on the type and clauses of major and minor non-conformities. They show what's being written up in the automotive supply chain as significant is several degrees removed from the actual quality issues being experienced in the vehicle market! This auditor is doing his "act" in countless other clients such as you and his CB are either blissfully aware or are letting him get away with it. Please, please let the powers that be know this is going on.
     
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  7. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with Andy's last post. I have had to complain about two auditors in the past. One acted as arbitrary as the one you described, and the other left operators in tears. Both times the registrars provided a better (not easier) auditor for future audits. No arguments at all.
     
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  8. Zebra418

    Zebra418 Member

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    I have not had a chance to add some of the comments or the screen shots for your enjoyment. I will do them ASAP. The problem lies in that Ownership does not want to piss off the auditor and have him badmouth the company to other auditors. We have in place very good procedures and process. The FAA is happy and in the end that's what matters to them, the ISO/AS cert is a great addition to a business card but the FAA will put you in jail....
     
  9. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    I certainly can understand your ownership. Sometimes its just easier to capitulate and make the problem "go away." But it does damage to your system. Think of how we felt when one auditor said xyz was no good, so we changed to abc, only to have the next auditor say "what are you doing abc for, when xyz would work?" Also, sometimes its the CB that is pushing the auditors. When I appealed our last doofus I ran into the chief doofuses and couldn't get anywhere.
     
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  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    In my experience, this rarely happens. Under the confidentiality agreements, they can't say anything to other companies, either. If they get pissed off, let them. Or did they forget who the customer is?
     
  11. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Never let him come back! Write an appeal to his organization. I believe they have a feedback mechanism procedure. You're the audit client. They're your external providers. Maybe you can devise a feedback form where after the conduct of an external audit, those who were audited will accomplish this feedback form and send the results to the CB's office. If the external auditor ask why do you have that form, tell him we're doing this to satisfy clause 8.4.3 where it specifies:
    The organization shall communicate to external providers its requirements for:
    d) the external providers’ interactions with the organization;
    e) control and monitoring of the external providers’ performance to be applied by the organization;
    ;)
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Which is what the AB is there to help with...
     
  13. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't know about ISO so much, but IATF et al are a beast in and of themselves. In many cases it's their way or the highway. Just look at their latest sanctioned "interpretations" where they essentially re-wrote parts of the standard that they originally messed up. Must be nice.
     

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