1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Old trope…

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Andy Nichols, Aug 6, 2023.

Tags:
  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,110
    Likes Received:
    2,562
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    “The key point is to be independent , because you cannot audit your own job and process you are directly involved”

    What non-sense! Why, in 2023, do people still believe this?
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 6, 2023
    #1
  2. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    62
    People are lazy. It’s easy to have someone else do the audit. That way you don’t have to explain and/or understand when you audit what you’re involved with.
     
    Golfman25, Aug 6, 2023
    #2
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,110
    Likes Received:
    2,562
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    It really shouldn’t be difficult to string the words from the standard together and make sense:

    Audit: independent (that’s “free from pressure”)
    Auditor: selected to be objective and impartial
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2023
    Andy Nichols, Aug 6, 2023
    #3
    John C. Abnet likes this.
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,110
    Likes Received:
    2,562
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Worryingly, a member of staff of an Accreditation Body made a video recently and claims that the words all mean the same thing! Independent, objective and the state of being unbiased are not synonymous. When an AB thinks like that, what hope that the CB auditors know different? The 3rd Part audit process has corrupted the effective implementation of Internal audits and management systems, as a result.
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 6, 2023
    #4
  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,350
    Likes Received:
    1,055
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    English is not my mother tongue. So, I have to look up for the synonyms. IMHO, these words are not meant to convey the same meaning.

    For auditors, being independent is negotiable. Being impartial and objective is non-negotiable.
     
    tony s, Aug 17, 2023
    #5
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,110
    Likes Received:
    2,562
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    It means freedom from pressure - not negotiable!
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 17, 2023
    #6
  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,350
    Likes Received:
    1,055
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    Ah! Thank you for correcting me. Maybe I'm not using the appropriate English sentence. What I meant about "negotiable" is that being independent may not always apply as clarified by some ISO standard references:
    • "Auditors should be independent of the activity being audited wherever practicable" - Section 4 of ISO 19011:2018;
    • "In some cases, specifically in smaller organizations or areas of the organization where specific job knowledge is required, it can be necessary for a person to audit their own work" - 9.2.2 of ISO/TS 9002:2016;
    • "For small organizations, it may not be possible for internal auditors to be fully independent of the activity being audited" - Section 4 of ISO 19011:2018.
    However, being "impartial and objective" should never be compromised.
     
    tony s, Aug 17, 2023
    #7
    Andy Nichols likes this.