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MSA on Torque Wrench

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by S1D3K1CK, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Member

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    Would an MSA on a torque wrench be non-variable or variable data collection? In the format my company uses for variable measurements, the measurements will not be "True" if the measurements of our torque wrench are entered into the form. Our torque wrench, calibrated to IATF standards, only reads to the value set on the wrench itself. For example; by measuring a weld nut torque value minimum of 363ft-lbs, the wrench will be set to 365ft-lbs and 370ft-lbs per customer requirements.

    The way the form works is; we type in the nominal, then the actual measurements into each appraiser's respective "zones". The form has a formula that calculates the results entered and gives the results in a Box and Whisker graph. If we were to enter whole numbers, for every appraiser, we would essentially get the same results, hence no variation between, even if each appraiser uses different methods of measurment/set-up.

    How can this be achieved, under IATF standards?
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Can I ask why you feel the need to calibrate torque wrenches? I've found that "verification" of torque wrenches is what is more common, albeit to a calibrated setting master. Verification takes away the need for some of this worry.

    BTW nothing is calibrated to "IATF standards". There is no such thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  3. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Member

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    Well, I meant Accredited Calibration to ISO/IEC 17025, which is in the IATF Standard. So you are not wrong. I just worded incorrectly.

    We are required to have our measuring equipment calibrated per CSR. As for using a calibrated setting master, I have tried to get the company to order one with negative results.

    I am more worried about an MSA on the torque wrench and not the actual calibration of the tool. I am actually confused about what's being asked exactly from the Re-cert Auditor for the MSA on torque wrenched and visual inspections.
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Add up the cost of calibration of every torque wrench vs doing it yourself with a mastering unit...
    Then have the CB clarify. The auditors don't always know what they're asking for...
     
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  5. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it depends on what you are doing. But, I would look at is non-variable data. You are either above or below the torque setting. In our case we use it to measure the release pressure on a molded bearing. As long as we where below the set parameter, we were good to go. So it was basically a go/no-go gage. Good luck.
     
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  6. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Member

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    I will try to get clarity on what is being asked. I will post examples once I get the response.
     
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  7. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Good luck. I wouldn't expect him to know the details. But anything you list on a control plan has to have an MSA associated with it. So it sounds like that is what he is looking for. How you do the MSA will be open for interpretation and confusion.

    The answer to your question may be Chpt 3, sec c of the MSA book -- Attribute measurement system study.
     
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  8. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Member

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    Thank you! I will look this up in the standard after the audit is completed. With me and my quality team having only OJT training, issues like this become a problem. I always appreciate the feedback I receive from this platform.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I concur that the MSA study should be an attribute study. The whole thing is predicated on the ability of a wrench to meet a minimum torque value, repeatably. Be sure to prepare the materials carefully, since torque is subject to a number of influences which aren't present in simple attribute gauging, for example.
     
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  10. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    There are a lot of people out there that will disagree with me, but I would argue that you should not be doing an MSA on a torque wrench. A torque wrench is not a gage, it is a process. You set the process parameter at a specified torque level and the process provides an output of torqued fasteners. A capability study of that output is definitely warranted. A torque analyzer is a gage and would warrant an MSA, but not the wrench.
     
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  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm TOTALLY with you, Miner. I have long worked from this position (especially as a Mechanical Engineer) however, everywhere I look, I find "calibration" and "torque wrench" uttered in the same breathe.
     
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  12. S1D3K1CK

    S1D3K1CK Member

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    I also agree. I feel a torque wrench would fall into the category of "Attribute Gage R&R". It really wouldn't need "calibration" per se, more like a "verification", to a torque analyzer, as you stated. Which I never fully understood, because a torque wrench has moving parts that can be replaced. I can see where the Auditor mentioned needing an MSA for torque wrenches, because it is stated in our control plan that we use a torque wrench on specific hardware and because it is a CSR for 'most' of the assembled hardware. But I think and Attribute Gage R&R would cover this.
     

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