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ISO 9001:2015 clause 8.7 vs clause 10.2

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by sunrize, Mar 12, 2020.

  1. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    Dear friends

    i really confused about clause 8.7 and clause 10.2 in services company, when a non conforming services detected.

    we have two forms
    1. Non conforming services report
    2. CAR Report

    in which form we should fill and processed and as per which clauses, because 8.7 is related to non conforming output (services or products) and clause 10.2 said any non conformities

    so me and my team confused about this, and also because 8.7 and 10.2 request different actions
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    When anything is produced by an organization, service or product, there will be times when there's a nonconformity. This needs to be recorded (your nonconforming services report) and dealt with. That might be in any number of ways. It might NOT include taking corrective action.

    When you have data to suggest the nature of the nonconformity justifies it, (usually risk, including cost, impact on customer etc) then corrective action may be necessary (using your CAR).
     
  3. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    thanks andy

    could i rephrase my question

    if we are training center and we got a complaint from one of our client with a non conforming services related to (deliver wrong syllabus & course material), firstly we record the complaint.

    My question: How we can treat this case through which clause 8.7 or 10.2 because we have two forms one for non confirming out put and other for CAR form

    Case1: Clause 8.7 Non conforming services
    we record the case on Non conforming services form and correct it by withdraw the wrong course material and deliver the updated one and retain the documented information that describe the non conformity and correction and record who is authorized for taking this action and the need for corrective action or not

    i.e customer complaint ..... then ..... Non conforming services form ...... then ..... CAR form if needed

    we suppose to choose this clause because there are a non conforming output and we should treat it

    or

    Case 2: Clause 10.2 non conformity and corrective action
    we record the case on CAR form and take correction required and analysis the root cause of this non conformity to determine if we need a corrective action or not

    i.e customer complaint ..... then ..... CAR form ...... then ..... take corrective action if needed

    we suppose to choose this clause because standard said the non conformity include complaint

    i hope that show why i am confused
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't over think it. You can simply fix the issue. It may never occur again. If, on the other hand it happens 2 or 3 or more times, each time being recorded as a nonconformity, you'd issue a CAR. Think it through. How many instructors do you have? How many times did they get the wrong materials? Or something missing etc? Is there a pattern? Do you need to discover the root cause?
     
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  5. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    so if we receiving a complaint from the client and treat it by filling the non conforming services report related to clause 8.7 and if there is a need for a CAR then we issue a CAR form

    is this ok?
     
  6. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    let me phrase my question again

    if we have a customer complaint regarding non conforming services

    the NCR initiated based on 8.7 or 10.2.1 ?
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    A nonconformity is a nonconformity. You can't take corrective action unless you know what problem you are trying to solve. A nonconformity may NOT be a problem, which is why you are allowed a number of treatments (which are listed as examples). If you have a nonconforming service you might, for example:

    Give the customer a discount as compensation
    Apologize and tell them it won't happen again
    Arrange a second offering of the service/training

    None of these are corrective actions. In many cases you CANNOT take corrective action for that situation, because it can't be changed. What you can do is gather data on what nonconformities exist and then take action on the things which a) affect clients, b) cost most and c) cause internal problems (in order of priority)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  8. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    Why have 2 forms? Why not merge them into one?

    If the client complains about the non-conforming service, you initiate the Nonconformance Report.

    In the Correction section, you detail out how the incorrect material was removed, the correct syllabus and course content provided, etc.

    If corrective action is required (and for this, I would suggest developing triggers - so a search for 'triggers' in the Search field back on the main page, as we have had had this discussion before), then you indicate that that CA is needed and that the next section will be completed.

    The Corrective Action section will have the root cause analysis, action plan, etc.

    One form.

    If you MUST keep them separate, then your first form could simply reference the appropriate corrective action report number where additional information/activities will be documented addressing the situation.
     
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  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I tend to agree with my learned friend from Canada. There's too much emphasis on form filling instead of gathering information and presenting it in a manner that supports proper decision making (aka "risk-based thinking"). Non-conformity recording can be as simple as the attached form (it's NOT ALL THAT NEEDS RECORDING HOWEVER, BEWARE). As each recurring error category is filled, (over time) it becomes obvious (Pareto style) which will require root cause action.
     

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  10. Guy Léger

    Guy Léger Member

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    I think the two clauses are not really diffent because in the first clause 8.7 we are in a non conformity output context and the action to be taken to correct the non confilormity detected... in the second clause 10.2 we are in the context of continuous improvment which consist to elimate the same non conformity, and prevent it from recurring...
    In short, the NCR initiated based on 8.7 in a report with it corrective action which can be exchanged with the customer...and in the second step the preventive action can be saved in another report which will be distribited between services of the same organisation...(sorry for my english)
     
  11. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    If we look closely at the statements under 10.2.1a, we can see that:
    • 10.2.1a.1 - is about correction;
    • 10.2.1a.2 - could be the trigger for 8.7 (if the nonconformity resulted to a nonconforming output)
    Corrective action will only initiate after the "need" for it has been established as per 10.2.1b (1 to 3).
     
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  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Are you considering there's no risk/benefit from doing anything more than simply recording a non-conforming output, deciding what to do with it and then implementing that (scrap and replace)? If you think that 8.7 always leads to a 10.2 activity, you need to try running a business... (even ISO 9001 talks about 'commensurate" and "risk")
     
  13. James Johnson

    James Johnson New Member

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    Hello, new here. I could not agree more with this. The first thing I "questioned" when I took on the role I currently have was the need for separate forms. Just tick more boxes if more items apply, just document the CA, the status of the specific items, the initials of the folks who verified the results, etc. It doesn't need to be rocket science. In some cases {or industries} maybe; but if it CAN be that simple for you (whatever "that" is defined as for your org.), make it that simple. Make it as simple as it can be.

    Just my two cents.
     
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  14. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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  15. Deepali

    Deepali New Member

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    Hello , new to this forum and recently join in new organisation and now revising our QMS. Some may find this post lengthy please excuse me for that.
    We also have 2 forms one is for nonconformity and another is for CAR. NC form mainly used for product NC raising from customer complaints ,inspections, logistics external audit and so on. This NC form included correction as well as corrective action to specify. CAR form is used during internal audits. Both the forms also ask for the root cause analysis and effectiveness of the corrective action taken to be verified. So my question are
    1. Can we keep only one form bcs internal audit also we identify NC product which is input to another downstream process.
    2. My understanding Corrective action only required if it is analysed otherwise correction will do.
    3. Effectiveness of corrective actions taken can only be verified observing over a period of time. So can NC be closed after verifying the implementation of corrective action. Effectiveness can be checked in subsequent audits. Is my understanding correct?

    Looking forward for suggestions. Thanks.
     
  16. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    CA can only be initiated if there's a NEED for it.
    Typically, building up of evidence/s of the effectiveness of the CA will require an appropriate amount of time. There is no requirement to "close" an NC. Effectiveness of the CA should be checked once there is enough evidence that the expected results are obtained. Don't need to wait for the next audit to do it.
     
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  17. kimberly

    kimberly New Member

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    ISO 9001 Clause 10.2 requires your organization to evaluate the need for actions that will prevent recurrence of nonconformities. ... Clause 8.7 only requires an organization to deal with outputs (products and/or services) that fail to conform to specified requirements.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2020
  18. Rustle

    Rustle Member

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    Agree with comments about a single form for logging issues but would even go further and suggest your default position should be to just log customer complaints on a simple register and only use the form once established the complaint is genuine and significant. Either a standalone customer complaints register (if you expect to get a lot) or add a category for 'customer complaints' to your general issues register.
    Some customer complaints may be spurious and may need no further action so why cripple yourself with form-filling.
     

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