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Is a criminal an interested Party?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Dobis, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. Dobis

    Dobis Member

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    Going by the interested party definition in ISO 9000:2015 as "person or organization that can affect, be affected by, or perceive itself to be affected by a decision or activity" of an organisation. Can a criminal be considered as an interested party, especially bank robbers.
     
  2. pkfraser

    pkfraser Active Member

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    If you read the definition then Yes, but ISO will say that isn't what they meant... Silly, isn't it?
     
  3. Rustle

    Rustle Member

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    As a consultant I find it difficult to review Interested parties with clients without A. Sounding really stupid or B. Patronising the client.
    To keep any chat about this as brief as possible I just supply a list of generic interested parties (which doesn't include criminals) and update this slightly depending on the client & on page 2 of this list I add any specific interested parties and if this was for a bank I suppose they would list robbers. Banks put up signs and share all sorts of information for the benefit of would-be robbers to try and deter them from robbing so in this case they are an interested party.
     
  4. pkfraser

    pkfraser Active Member

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    How an organisation arranges for security is of interest to a hacker, or a burgler. So criminals are Interested Parties - as are competitors. But that wasn't what ISO intended, I suspect...
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Peter, I believe in some cases, they ARE interested parties and, indeed, ISO TC 176 gives guidance to that effect. Not criminals, but competitors. For example, the tobacco industry utilized a "round-robin standard" for smoking machines which tested cigarettes. There is no national/international standard for traceability. Such cases are, however quite rare.

    Criminals as interested parties? Never!
     
  6. pkfraser

    pkfraser Active Member

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    Andy
    I agree that it is daft, but... “person or organization that can affect, be affected by, or perceive itself to be affected by a decision or activity”.

    First of all, what sort of “decision or activity”? Taken by whom? Surely that needs to be part of the definition? As it stands, the definition is more or less meaningless.

    If an organisation chooses not to lock up its warehouse at night, then a burglar can be affected by that decision, because he can walk in and help himself. Or if it doesn’t implement a firewall or anti-virus software, then its IP (and business) is at risk. That’s what the words mean!
     
  7. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    By the literal word-for-word definition of 'interested party', a criminal could likely be considered in this light. That said, the intent of the standard and its subsequent requirements are all about the ability of the organization to consistently meet the requirements of stakeholders (which would likely NOT include criminals).

    However, an organization may wish to address the conflicting interests where the criminals' interests are at odds with those of a bank's clients. Further to that, the organization may wish to show how they've taken actions to mitigate the likelihood of the criminals successfully achieving their goals and how these actions successfully allow bank clients to achieve their goals.
     
    Miner and tony s like this.
  8. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    In one organization in my country, once a criminal is put to jail - he/she is an interested party. See its ISO 9001 certification here.:)
     
  9. 4Matic

    4Matic Member

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    I was informed that evidence of breaking the law would ALWAYS generate a nonconformance. It is a legal requirement to comply with the Health and Safety at Work Regulations. Under these regulations, you must consider the health and safety of intruders onto your premises and so although they could be criminals, they would also be interested parties. Therefore in the design of a building site, for example, you should consider the health and safety of any children or others who may gain access unlawfully.
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Since this forum is ISO 9001:2015 - which is, as you know, product quality related - the HSE aspects don't apply.
     
  11. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    "At Work" is the key words here. Would you consider intruders as persons working for the organization?
     
  12. 4Matic

    4Matic Member

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    'At work' is not the key word. Intruders, whether or not they work for the organisation or are simply criminals entering the premises with the intent to steal or commit other crimes are included within the scope of the HSAW.

    "Uninvited visitors
    There is a duty of care to uninvited visitors, such as trespassers.

    The Occupiers Liability Act 1984 defines under what circumstances a duty is owed. Occupiers will be liable to an injured trespasser if the following three conditions apply.

    1. The occupier knew of the risk or had reasonable grounds to believe that it existed,

    2. The occupier knew or had reasonable grounds to believe that trespassing could occur.

    3. The risk is one that the occupier may reasonably be expected to offer some protection against.
    It is insufficient to expect all “visitors” to the premises to be aware that hazards exist and how they should be avoided.

    The standard of care should be dependent on the age of the trespasser. There is a greater duty of care to children and young people than to adults. It is important to realize that written warnings posted near hazards are likely to be considered insufficient without some form of physical protection.

    The duty of care extends to those hazards that are reasonably foreseeable of causing a risk to the visitor, and that if a visitor may come sufficiently close to a hazard that they could be affected. This duty is discharged by giving a suitable warning or deterring entry."
     

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