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Internal audits

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Manish Sawant, May 23, 2016.

  1. Manish Sawant

    Manish Sawant Member

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    Hello Friends,

    Q1) How do we conduct internal audits? Do we consider each procedure (6 mandatory procedures) and audit it against the requirements it needs to follow,as specified in ISO clauses? or do we go department to department and audit different procedures & processes (operational procedures) within that department and not the mandatory procedures?

    Q2) Also, What are the different forms commonly used during / for internal audits? I know a few like Internal audit schedule, internal audit report and internal audit plan? I would really appreciate if anyone can list other forms that I am not aware of.

    Q3) What content should I include in these forms? For eg, what content or information should i include in an internal audit plan? Please share any templates if possible here or PM (Private Message) me here at QFO so that I may share my contact information with you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2016
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Manish: Have you had any training to do internal audits? If not - judging by your questions - may I suggest that you will NOT get a good result asking questions and gathering examples here. It is far more effective to attend a course for 2 days or pay someone to coach you to do audits.
     
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  3. senior

    senior Member

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    Dear Manish,
    Internal audit should be conducted by qualified ISO auditor.
    Depends on your organisation usually internal auditing is done by a team of qualified internal auditors
     
  4. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Dear Manish
    In order to do successful audits, you need to have trained people.
    When we recently implemented ISO ,for the first audits,we hired external auditors, meanwhile I sent my people to get training for the audits.
    Now after 2 years ,I do my audits with my internal people.
    Auditing is very important for a QMS, so people must have competency to accomplish these tasks.
    Hope this helps
     
  5. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    The most effective internal audits I have found that actually result in change and improvement in your organization are layered audits. Like anything, they must be done right and with support of management. But as far as organizational arrangement, changing culture, and general effectiveness, they are the best. And they are tailored to your needs.

    Go to the AIAG website, you are looking for CQI-8 : Layered Audits. You can download the workbook describing how they should be set up. And you can download a layered audit audit ... in other words, and audit of your layered audit system to see if it is set up properly.

    In general words, a few key elements are:
    1) They have layers. So floor leaders have targeted audits for their area. Next level managers or engineers do roving audits, all the way up to the plant manager.
    2) Done right, they are fluid. A certain amount of items on them will ALWAYS be there. But then there is the capability for fluid changes to them. Why? If you get a non-conformity from your customer, a relevant check or checks needs to be added to the layered audit for a period of time (usually a month) to ensure that your permanent corrective action is permanent.
     
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    NC - you can't use LPA in place of ISO 9001 internal audits. They don't meet the requirements and are additional - even in ISO/TS 16949 - to all the other audits specified. The reason that IA done for ISO 9001 are NOT as successful is because they typically don't involve management - which is easy to address with an ISO 9001 IA program, instead of doing something which will attract an NC because ISO 9001 auditors are unlikely to know what LPA is...
     
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  7. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    And Andy is correct again. :)

    This time I double checked what sub-thread I was in. The title of the thread just said "Internal Audits."

    (That said, I am going to stamp my feet and pout and say layered audits rule. :p )
     
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    :D;)
     
  9. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    You are referring to 6 mandatory procedures. I presume one of them is a Procedure to conduct Internal Audit and apparently should help answering all your queries.
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    In ISO 9001:2015 there is no requirement for a "mandatory procedure" for internal audit. You might also ask that if the OP is asking the question, they (probably) might not have a procedure - and since they don't apparently know how to perform internal audits, who would write such a procedure?
     
  11. Manish Sawant

    Manish Sawant Member

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    Thank you very much for the reply.

    @ Andy: You're right I have not had any training course for conducting audits.

    We have not started to conduct any internal audits yet. We are still developing procedures and forms and then implement. For now I am just looking to develop Internal audit forms. That's why I was wandering if anyone would share a copy of their templates.

    @ Ganesh: The standard only lists the requirements. But does not provide forms. So its a little hard for a novice like me to develop them. So I seek advice from experts like you.
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd suggest you DON'T do that. Taking others' forms without understanding what you need is dangerous, IMHO. You'll be even more confused - because some people THINK they know how to do audits, have created a monster - 1 once saw a person who had a huge 8 x 14 sheet of paper which the internal auditors had to fill out! It was mind numbing! But, how would you know that ISN'T the way to do audits?

    Go and learn, then develop your own forms.
     
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  13. Manish Sawant

    Manish Sawant Member

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    That's right..

    What opinion you have about the templates available for free on the internet. Some quality consultant companies offer free templates..
     
  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    They are no better - or worse - than anyone else's. I never had any help developing my own forms/templates. But I did get the best training...That lasted longer than forms/templates...
     
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  15. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    I could not agree with Andy more. There are more ridiculous audits out there on the interwebs that look real sexy, but do NOT add value. Here is my 2 cents:

    1) Always construct them to be "Pass/Fail" for the response. The problem with "Yes/No" is sometimes YES is the passing answer and sometimes NO is the passing answer. Example: Is the workplace organized? Yes=Good. Are there any observable safety hazards? No=Good.
    2) Do not be afraid to scrutinize a question. If a question is not yielding a result - it's always a "Pass" - consider removing it. But be careful - CONSIDER the decision. "Any question answered Pass 10 times in a row gets removed" is a bad policy. But if you were to discuss the need for the question after 10 passes, that isn't bad. Some things you ALWAYS want to check. The problem is that list tends to grow.
    3) Do not forget that you CAN assign risk. Think about your car... gas gets checked daily, oil monthly, and transmission fluid quarterly. Why? Were you to do an RPN on operating a car, gas would be high, transmission fluid low. You can have a light daily audit and a comprehensive monthly audit. That's wise to do so.
    4) Always have a place for champions. Should you have a finding, who is responsible for correcting it?
     
  16. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Manish,
    We are changing the way we do Internal Audits now that the ISO9001:2015 has arrived. We still have the schedule and the plan. Since we are in this continuous improvement Lean Initiative program and all the work instructions have changed, they introduced another program whereby the operators will start reviewing and walking through the new and improved work instruction. The Quality Coordinator is a bit confused because the Top Management said put ISO stuff on the side. My advice to him was: (1) Create a schedule for when these review happen- name it SOP Review. (2) Conduct review according to Plan. (3) Interview operators and ask about the risk to the business if they short-cut the process (4) Once you find there is a risk, classify everything as "Observation" with a caveat that next round of audit will follow the items observed and call it a nonconformance. For Management Review use the daily stand-up meetings and note down action plans making sure they are followed up for closure. In order not to lose the spirit of ISO 9001 my organization needs to add a spark to it by using the LEAN initiatives to monitor all the improvement in the process in order to reduce the risk to As Low As Reasonably Possible. Now there are information that needed to be maintained (documents) and documents that needed to be retained (records) because of ISO9001:2015. Be aware of those when doing the Internal Audit. Hope this helps a little.
     
  17. cookie007

    cookie007 New Member

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    Andy, I have been asked to be an internal auditor and need training, where can I find this training you did?!
     
  18. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Cookie: Are you familiar with the 1960s pop song, "Pictures of Lily", by the Who? In the lyrics, the singer discovers the girl in the picture he has desires for, died long before he was born...

    My training - in process auditing, no less - was back in 1985! However, if you're in the USA - better still, Michigan - I can help!
     
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  19. cookie007

    cookie007 New Member

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    Lol, I don't know the song but I am in the USA, Massachusetts :)
     
  20. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    Cookie007, your registrar may offer some training but if you do a search for 'ISO 9001 internal auditor training Massachusetts', I'm confident you'll receive many promising leads. Hopefully, other QFO members can suggest who they used - especially if they're also located in Massachusetts.
     

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