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Internal Audit must be announced?

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by may@ m., Sep 5, 2019.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you do other types of internal audits? Are they "announced"? The OP is questioning the need for this, because certain industry approaches to auditing use "gotcha" tactics, due to the high risks involved. A QMS audit shouldn't be, for most industries, carried out unannounced. Audits done this way are totally ineffective.
     
  2. Quality Guy

    Quality Guy Member

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    No we do not do other internal audits. I agree that audits for your QMS should be announced. Sorry if my reply was a bit off track.
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    In that case - sorry to be blunt and public - your organization's QMS is not compliant with ISO 9001:2015! Did you use an IAF accredited Certification Body?
     
  4. Quality Guy

    Quality Guy Member

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    Why is that? You mean are we doing other internal weekly audits? That is how I took your question.
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    In addition to the weekly, unannounced audits, what other internal audits does the organization perform on it's QMS?
     
  6. Quality Guy

    Quality Guy Member

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    We are doing our required QMS audits for each department, usually spaced out quarterly to various departments.
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Aren't you auditing processes? Departments often handle many processes. They shouldn't be done spaced out to a quarterly schedule, or monthly or annually. In fact, you're probably missing vitally important issues, which the audits could help resolve.
    This is a good explanation for the OP who wants to know more about how internal audits are supposed to be done, including being "announced"...
     
  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    There are many myths about auditing, and a lot of folks gauge the success of their audit program based on what their CB auditor says. Here's the news: Many CB auditors don't KNOW how to internal audit a QMS

    You make a schedule and they are happy, because it sounds like you understand "frequency" and "planned". But that forgets a lot of other things you are supposed to do, which CB auditors often don't understand at all.

    A successful internal audit program is set up to deliver results to management, for them to review. What do they need to know? Did you ask them? They probably don't need to know much more than:
    a) did my people follow the process(es)
    b) can I believe the numbers?

    Performance (should) answer b) and internal auditors answer a)
     
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  9. Quality Guy

    Quality Guy Member

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    Andy, how are they supposed to be spaced? They need to be spaced out somehow right? Not on a regular schedule? I'm interested in this, thanks.
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Fabulous question!

    I have (successfully run and have ISO/TS 16949 Certified) an audit program which didn't use a calendar, except for some obvious events, like when the CB audit happens. Otherwise, all internal audits were done to a sliding 30 day window, where we looked at what was going on in the business - process performance (to goal, over goal), product conformity (scrap, rework, warranty), supplier issues, equipment downtime etc and also customer feedback. When you discover that these things didn't go as planned, you can do an audit to discover if the (documented) defined QMS process was followed. If it was, then it needs fixing. If it wasn't, then something else needs fixing.

    All this information comes from - wait for it - MANAGEMENT (which is why you can't do unannounced audits.)

    Added after my lunch:

    Another consideration is that all audits don't have to be done to the same frequency. Let's say you have a big order from a new customer. It's beyond the scope of most of the work done previously. You wouldn't only audit once a month/quarter/year. You'd want to be auditing key milestones as they happened to ensure everything - verifying that is - the processes were capable of delivering to this new requirement and to ensure things didn't go off the rails for too long, before things were fixed.

    Once again, this needs the inputs of the management team, not simply some arbitrary calendar pluck out of the sky and then have a CB give their thumbs up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  11. may@ m.

    may@ m. Member

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    The NC cited that because the internal audit is embedded in the operational audits which our organization conducted unannounced, the requirement to conduct audit at a planned interval is not complied. :confused:
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    As far as I recall, it doesn't say "planned interval" in the standard. It says "planned" and mentions frequency etc. but NOT interval. Your auditor got it wrong. Reject the non-conformity and have them repeal it.
     
  13. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    "Planned interval" doesn't necessarily mean "announced". If the auditee knows that there would be audits "every year/quarter" but the exact date is undisclosed, isn't that still fall under the definition of "planned interval"?
     
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  14. may@ m.

    may@ m. Member

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    Thank you @tony s .
    We will certainly repeal the NC.
     

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