1. Hello and Welcome to The Quality Forum Online...Continuing in the spirit of People Helping People !
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

IAF will prohibit CB's to issue non accredited certificates

Discussion in 'Registrars (Certification Bodies) & Registration' started by Sidney Vianna, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. Sidney Vianna

    Sidney Vianna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    42
    According to an IAF Resolution, CB's will be prohibited from issuing non-accredited certificates for scopes they have accreditation.
    Some accredited CB's have been caught in the practice of issuing non-accredited certificates for scopes they were totally accredited for. Some people might not understand why a CB would do that, but, it is very simple: issuing a non-accredited certificate makes that certification program, including it's audits outside of the accreditation body scrutiny. So, a CB could low ball the number of audit-days, send a non-competent audit team, miss surveillance audits, etc....and that certificate could not be scrutinized by the AB. As many people still don't understand what accreditation is and how to verify if a certificate is properly accredited, such despicable practice is not readily flagged.

    Hopefully, the IAF resolution might change the state of deception, but, it is not clear how an AB would identify such practice, as, mentioned above, any non-accredited certification program is outside the jurisdiction of the AB and those records would be outside of the scope of the AB audit of the CB. Someone would have to bring the existence of the non-accredited certificate to the AB's personnel, as a "whistle blower". Not very likely.....
     
  2. MarkMeer

    MarkMeer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Yes, not very likely indeed...

    Also, I imagine that there are cases where the CB was at some point accredited, and later narrowed their scope - unbeknownst to the certified clients who would simply continue to maintain their certification.

    This is interesting to me, as it raises question of who should be responsible for oversight. Should it be bottom-up (where the onus is on manufacturers to continually check the accreditation status of their CBs), or top-down (where the AB is responsible to ensure that CBs they accredit are staying within the scope of what they are accredited for)....
     
  3. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    451
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    This is too bad. :( But as we have certificates issued by unaccredited registrars and registrars "accredited" to, among others, AIAO-BAR, the process is still a shark tank and buyer must beware. Unless this is what they wanted, that is.
     
  4. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Messages:
    640
    Likes Received:
    192
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Sidney can you give an example without mentioning the name of the CB?
     
  5. Sidney Vianna

    Sidney Vianna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    42
    How, do you suggest, I do that? It did not take me long to find online an ISO 9001 certificate issued by a well known registrar with no accreditation logo on it; a sign that it is NOT accredited. The problem is OBVIOUSLY real; otherwise the IAF would not bother with a resolution.
     
  6. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Messages:
    640
    Likes Received:
    192
    Trophy Points:
    42
    That is a known risk to the CB not to the client. In the event of a witness audit, the CB could get a major NC against the standard (I do not recall the number) to which they are audited against and if they continue to do this practice their certificate will be suspended, I suppose.
     
  7. Sidney Vianna

    Sidney Vianna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Until the IAF resolution becomes effective, ANY non-accredited certification program is out of bounds for an AB audit of the CB. If the certificate and the certification program are issued outside of the accredited process, the AB will not have access to those records.
     
  8. Somashekar

    Somashekar Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    97
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Major CB's in there quotations charge a separate fee for the AB logo use on the issued certificate, and say that this charge is directly towards AB fee payable by the CB. Now the onus is on the client. Is this the practice that the AB approve, when they let a CB to operate with there logo ?
     
  9. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    451
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    In my arguably limited observation, including the AB image on the cert incurs a fee that the client can choose not to pay, but the audit is still done per the accreditation rules.
     
  10. Somashekar

    Somashekar Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    97
    Trophy Points:
    27
    In the certification market, it is the CB who has the bigger name and any client knows and trusts the CB more than having much to do with the AB. Certification has been and always will be a business requirement, rather than a company requirement. So, when the customer asks nothing more than a certification from his supplier, or even asks certification from any recognized CB, the scope and requirement of an AB is never apparent.
    Hence a CB must not quote a fee for the use of AB logo, and give scope to the client for negotiation, as invariably the audit cost part will also be touched when a customer does not need the AB logo. Once accredited, the CB remains accredited until he loses the accreditation from the AB, and the CB must be bound to issue only certificates that carry AB logo, and nothing less.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Only some, in my experience, Soma (here in the USA, anyways). It's not a universal fee charged by all.
     
  12. Sidney Vianna

    Sidney Vianna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    42
    I have seen quotes by CB's where the "option" for the client to request an accredited certificate is buried in the fine print. Accredited CB's should not make an accredited certificate as an "option". Once the non-accredited option is exercised, there is no external oversight. Accredited CB's that don't make it's default delivery an accredited certificate are a disgrace to the certification sector that wants this process to be value added. Accredited CB's that willingly and actively promote non-accredited certificates are just giving ammunition to the unaccredited and pseudo-accredited CB's.


    Soma, that is not correct. So much so that the IAF passed the resolution in question. If accredited CB's were only issuing accredited certificates, the IAF resolution would not need to exist, isn't it?

    Someone at the IAF decided to "crack down" on this scam. the problem is: not easy to police it, from the AB's perspective, as I already explained.
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  13. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    451
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    Is the fine print an indicator that the audit is performed differently or that the client can simply choose if the symbol appears on the certificate or not? I am not aware that we do that, but I could be wrong I guess.
     
  14. Sidney Vianna

    Sidney Vianna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Jennifer, once the certification scheme is done outside of the accredited process, all bets are off. The CB can do ANYTHING without an external scrutiny. You as the auditor might think you are following the same process, but who ensures the audit days are as per minimum estimates? Who ensures the audit team has the necessary competence? Who ensures the maximum interval in between audits is being respected?

    The issue goes WELL beyond the certification having an accreditation mark. As I keep repeating, once an unaccredited route is taken, the CB does whatever they want without the risk of being caught cheating.

    If the practice was not detrimental to the integrity of the accredited certification process, it would not be a subject of an IAF resolution, don't you think?

    Shameful practice of deceit. And the culprits should be exposed for the deception.
     
  15. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    451
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    As Lead Auditor I ensure the audit days are correct, head count is current, scope statements are accurate, and complexity is appropriate; and I ensure the team member with SIC qualification is assigned the path with major processes. As Lead this is my responsibility, as I write the agenda and maintain communications with the client. I monitor these things routinely and am expected to conform to procedure or let my superiors know when issues arise so they can be corrected within the Office.

    That said, I have no control over sampling plans for corporate certs and audits arranged by my overseas business partners are beyond my jurisdiction.
     

Share This Page