Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

How to handle the case that the recommended action cannot be determined??

Discussion in 'FMEA - Failure Modes and Effects Analysis' started by Pongsakorn, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Pongsakorn

    Pongsakorn Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    7
    In some case that the recommended action cannot be determined, I put the statement "There is no proper recommended action can be determined in this round, this will be reviewed in the next round of FMEA review" in the recommended action column as a note for the team to revisit ij the next round.
    However, customer do not accept this practice but force me to determine the recommended action which I am not able to do.
    Please advise what should be the proper way to handle this case.
     
  2. Evers

    Evers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2020
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    If I understand correctly, you have identified a risk with a risk score / risk priority number that is too high to be accepted and needs a control measure. However, at this moment it is not possible to eliminate the root cause, or increase the detection?

    In some cases, residual risk cannot be reduced. In that case, objective evidence such as data and literature can be gathered and reviewed on the benefits of the intended use / intended purpose to determine if they outweigh the residual risk. Sometimes a “state of the art” argument can be made to demonstrate that less hazardous alternatives do not exist and the benefits outweigh the risks.

    I can understand the standpoint of your customer, if you have identified a risk but are unable to provide control measures.

    Should you be able to share some information about the type of product or risk you are having trouble with, the people here may be able to give some more specific advise.
     
    Pongsakorn likes this.
  3. Pongsakorn

    Pongsakorn Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Thanks for your reply.
    Your understanding is correct. One thing is that customer need me to determine recommended action for any RPN >84. There are several line items that has RPN >84. I can determine action for some item but there is no any idea for some item. I just need to know how to handle the case that I have no any idea on how to improve the RPN to be less than 84 for the time being. Some customer can accept such note that I put but some customer did not accept. I still have no idea how to handle this case.
     
  4. Evers

    Evers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2020
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    If there really is no way to improve the RPN without major changes to the current setup (As Low As Reasonably Possible) or without blowing up costs (As Far As Possible), I think it is important to clearly communicate this to your customer.
    One option is to present them with a review of the residual risk, with justification for (mutual) acceptance. Of course there is a difference if your RPN is only a couple of points over 84 or much higher.


    It will not be possible to accept the risk as ,,will be reviewed in the next round''
    Your options are:
    - Accept risk with justification.
    - Lower RPN. (Extra QC, change of design, product only to be used by trained personell etc.)

    What solution will work for you is difficult to say. This will depend on your product, intended use and relationship with your customer.
     
    Pongsakorn likes this.
  5. Bev D

    Bev D Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Maine
    First I’m sorry that you are stuck with the silly RPN thing.

    However, if we had more details we could provide insight in to how to actually reduce/mitigate the risk.

    What is driving the RPN: severity, occurence, detection?
     
    Pongsakorn and Andy Nichols like this.
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    4,149
    Likes Received:
    2,099
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    The RPN is a source of much confusion. What could happen is that the "risk" is somewhat reliant on the the difference between detection - which is less than perfect - and prevention which is optimal. As we know the 84 can be made up from a number of combinations of S.O.D and if you can provide details of the values with each?
     
    Pongsakorn likes this.
  7. Pongsakorn

    Pongsakorn Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    7
    An example of RPN >84 is from D=6, O=4 and D=5 (RPN = 120)
    Base on AIAG FMEA Manual 4th edition, I am focusing on S= 9 and 10 and D= 9 and 10
     
  8. Pongsakorn

    Pongsakorn Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    7
    An example of RPN >84 is from D=6, O=4 and D=5 (RPN = 120)
     
  9. Bev D

    Bev D Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Maine
    To clarify we do know how to calculate the RPN and what the numbers are.
    You are asking for ideas on how to mitigate - the only way we can do this is to have specifics not generalizations.

    For example a severity 9/10 adn a detection of 9/10 means that teh failure mode is extremely severe (death) and your detection cannot detect that. You don’t state teh occurence and how you KNOW what the occurence will be. Nor do you discuss what the failure is or what your detection is. Without that level of detail we can tell you to apply physics and prevent the failure.
     
    Pongsakorn and Andy Nichols like this.
  10. Pongsakorn

    Pongsakorn Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Really thanks Bev for helping me always to find the way out.
    My obstruction now is that there are several line items with RPN>84, I am not able to provide recommended action completely for all those line items. Missing only 1 item is not acceptable by customer. I have feedback to customer to stop using RPN to trigger the action determination but customer deny to do so.
    I do not know how to handle some line item that I still have no proper action to reduce RPN. Putting the statement "this item will be revisit in the next round (6 months) of FMEA review is also not acceptable by customer.
    I need to get advice from you as follows:
    - How to convince customer to use RPN >84 as a threshold for action priority?
    - How to handle the case of RPN>84 but no proper action to be determined for the time being.
     
  11. Bev D

    Bev D Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Maine
    I don’t know how to be more clear - we need details. Details details details.
    What is the failure? What is severity number?
    What is the occurence? How do you know what the occurence is?
    What is the detection method? How do you know what it’s capability is?
    What mitigation and control do you have in place?
     
    Pongsakorn, Evers and Andy Nichols like this.
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    4,149
    Likes Received:
    2,099
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    You have fallen into the same trap as many, looking at the number as a pure value of "risk". It isn't. As Bev says, unless you give us context, as requested, you can't be helped.
     
    Pongsakorn likes this.
  13. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    361
    Trophy Points:
    62
    The customer is driving the silly RPN thing. Not much you can do about that. What I usually do, when we have done everything reasonably possible, it use the notation "no cost effective action feasible" or something similar. You can always do something, the real issue is the cost of such action -- i.e.; I can't possibly set up automated visual inspection for all of my parts. Good luck.
     
    Pongsakorn likes this.
  14. Pongsakorn

    Pongsakorn Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Thanks, we are in the same boat.
     

Share This Page