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  1. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Good day @tony s ;
    I respectfully disagree here. Remember, most internal auditors are peers with those who are working in the processes being audited. In addition, in my experiences (as mentioned previously in this thread), most internal auditors ...
    - have "a day job",
    - don't WANT to be internal auditors (or the opposite, which is the over zealous)
    - and are rarely equipped, especially in the important aspect of interpersonal skills.

    It is often already (wrongly so) implied or directed to internal auditors, that they are responsible for identifying and FIXING any gaps that are uncovered. This is not the role of internal auditors (and neither is responsibility for continual improvement).

    Remember what ISO 9001:2015 clause 9.2.1 states in regards to the purpose/intent of an internal audit. ..."...provide information".... Nothing more. And considering this "information" is to be communicated to "relevant management" (and of course an input of management review), then once again, the responsibility for identifying areas needing improvement and initiating and providing the resources for improvement, once again (rightly so) falls to management.

    Hope this helps.

    Be well.
     
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  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Certainly. I'd also suggest that they influence the way internal audits are don, through this training. Trainers who are CB auditors, trainers who only KNOW the CB way to audit. It's very pervasive. The draw being the client who thinks "If I audit the way my CB does, I'll get a passing grade"...
    If you are management, how do you discover this? Auditing isn't institutional in most cases, so where to start (this is the crux of my question)
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    But, @John C. Abnet , you haven't been drinking the Audit CoolAid ;):D
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
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  4. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    I would say that is likely and hard to avoid, but it looks like you are referring to accredited training. If that is so, the focus is sure to be on verifying conformance to the standard. Just as advertised, and just as I believe most people would expect.
    I have seen very few managers who care to discover it. Most have cared for little more than getting the schedule done and closing out whatever non conformances were raised. Continual improvement was for other people to handle. If they did care, they could discuss their ideas for teamwork with the audit process with the audit process owner. They could also learn to recognize that those OFIs could be continual improvement hints and suggestions, and include them in Management Review. Out of my hundreds of 3rd party audits I can count on one hand the organizations that grasp this.
     
  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    I believe I'm well aware of this when I said:
    You mentioned:
    I said:
    Looking for areas for improvement doesn't necessarily mean that the auditors are the ones that should be responsible for fixing the processes.
     

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