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Competence Requirements for Internal Auditors

Discussion in 'AS 91XX - Aerospace Quality Standards' started by Laura N., Jun 3, 2020.

  1. Mike S.

    Mike S. Member

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    Actually, I see a lot of blowing of one's own trumpets around here. And a lot of accusing anyone who doesn't challenge every disagreement with the auditor all the way to the CB management as "bending" or "allowing auditors to go unchecked" etc. etc. ad nauseum.

    In my real world, I have to, as Golfman said, "pick my battles" because, as I said earlier, there are 2 things I need to do, and do as efficiently as possible: 1. do what I need to do to help the company, and 2. satisfy the registrar auditor so we get/keep our cert. And actually there is a 3rd thing I need to do -- keep earning a paycheck (hopefully while avoiding a stress-induced coronary in the process).

    Last year I battled the auditor on 2 NCs, and he ignored me and wrote them up. I advised our President (3 levels above me) to dispute them and was told "no" -- go along to get along. I had another registrar auditor review the NC's and tell me he would have disputed them, too, but guess what? It ain't my company, I don't get to ultimately decide. I like getting a paycheck more than winning a battle.

    I also disputed audit hours and auditor assignments with the CB and "won" that battle.

    Win some, lose some, decide some ain't worth the fight.

    That's my real world. YMMV
     
  2. Laura N.

    Laura N. Member

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    Thank you again for all the information from everyone.

    I was looking for everyone's thoughts and that is exactly what I got. This is exactly why I joined this group.

    I have 2 weeks until stage 2, I am off to get all our ducks in a row and I will let you know what our results are.

    What an exciting time we are in aren't we?

    My very best to everyone! :)

    Laura N.
     
  3. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your positive attitude @Laura N . Glad to have you in the group .

    Be well
     
  4. nibin k k

    nibin k k New Member

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    I completely agree with you.
    The process of internal audit have certain steps to be followed.
    example:defining the Audit scope and objectives and how to perform the audit or what to look for in a systematic way reference to certain standards
    So I believe that,Such trainings definitely help an auditor to meet the process approaches.
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Could you explain what this is? I've see it referenced many times but cannot find a definition anywhere... It's not required by ISO 9001, or AS9100D. It's mentioned in IATF 16949 but even there, a definition is missing.
     
  6. nibin k k

    nibin k k New Member

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    I meant about the methodology of internal audits can be developed through trainings facilitating by different certification bodies.
    ASQ or TUV are providing different levels of Auditor certification trainings.

    You may be right that AS is not specifically mentioning about the certification

    But under section 7, Competency and skill required for any job to be performed.
    So we can laid down the requirements of internal trainer competency requirements in internal procedures and adhere to that
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm aware of what training is available and who does it. I have been training auditors since 1990. What is the "process approach" you mentioned? I hoped you could explain.
     
  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    You really don't know? I would suggest comparing in to the old days -- the checklist approach.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    That may be YOUR experience, but a) it's NOT mine and b) someone coined this phrase, but never DEFINED it. Until there's a definition, it can be everything and nothing.
     
  10. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Google is your friend.
     
  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    There's nothing wrong with a checklist, in fact they are very useful. It's the approach to how an audit is conducted. A checklist can be structured to support a process audit.

    I believe you are conflating an undefined "requirement" (process approach) with a tool (the checklist). I'd suggest the confusion came from a time when a bunch of hapless, lack luster and poorly trained (CB) auditors audited clauses of the audit criteria, (probably QS-9000) to a checklist which was simply those requirements turned into questions. In fact, I recall how the IATF had a fit when they followed the CB auditors and discovered this (and a bunch of "majors") and, as a result, contracted Plexus (who had no clue about audits) to remedy this. It was they who devised the infamous "turtle" (a fancy checklist) in a vain attempt to force the CB auditors to audit a process. Of course, the turtle is nothing of the sort (it was ripped off from Phil Crosby's Process Analysis tool).

    I maintain that, until an authority such as TC 176 or the ISO 19011 committee defines "process approach to audits" that there can be no formal recognition and, therefore, anything goes. Until TC 176, IAQG or even IAOB define it, it is anything anyone wants it to be...
     
  12. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, good luck with that. The rest of the world will get on with a process based approach to auditing.
     
  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't believe that the ISO/TC 176 committee employs Google as a normative reference...
     

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