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Clause 8.3 for consulting firm

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by sunrize, Jan 3, 2023.

  1. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    Hello

    we are consulting firm offering training and consultation

    for ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.3 we implement design and development of our training services.

    but for consultation serives i have some doubt, the scope of our services, the client call us to solve one of his problem, so we make analysis for his problem and define the cause and then we suggest a solution that he will follow to solve his problem

    i think that here also 8.3 is implemented but my team say no

    please advice ?
     
    sunrize, Jan 3, 2023
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  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    What is the exact scope of your QMS? "Training and consulting" is a very imprecise description to work with and give guidance.
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 4, 2023
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  3. yodon

    yodon Well-Known Member

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    It might help to look at your (consulting) services as your product. May not be a lot of "design and development" but viewing in that light might help clarify.
     
    yodon, Jan 4, 2023
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    Andy Nichols likes this.
  4. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    Yes our qms scope provision of training and industrial technical consultany

    Our consultancy services about solving the technical problem in plastic industry

    I am tired in ubderstanding 8.3 clause
     
    sunrize, Jan 4, 2023
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    This isn't very helpful, I'm sorry to say. You shouldn't even consider becoming ISO 9001 Certified with such a poorly worded scope. What are you selling to customers? Have you asked your sales people? Do they actually know what you provide in terms of training and consulting?

    I find that many organizations don't grasp the significance of well and accurately worded scope statements. "Training" means everything and nothing. What types of skills are you training people to possess? Plastics industry technical consulting helps, somewhat, however do you ONLY work on problems? Are you also brought in to assist BEFORE things become problems?
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 4, 2023
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  6. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    Dear andy the procedure and process map cover all the processes well, ok we agree that scope need more details

    Regarding the issue of clause 8.3

    We expect that design and development input and output could be like this

    Design input:
    - Customer requirements
    - Other requirements from previous similar projects
    - Applicable standards
    - Law, mandatory regulations in industry

    Design output:
    - Project plan
    - Expected outcome /results
    - How to control the projects during implementation
    - How to assess the output of project

    Design verification
    - we can make a verification for output against input

    Design validation
    - we didn't know how to make validation and make validation for what ?

    but finally, we think that we can implement clause 8.3 when the consultancy include install / setup a system or solution at client end.

    but if it was just a problem and the client need a support to solve his problem by getting our recommendation and experience we will do via 8.2 and 8.5.1
     
    sunrize, Jan 4, 2023
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  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    What is it you are actually designing? Do you have a tangible, defined and deliverable “package” of services to meet a specific set of customer(s’) needs? Do you formulate training services to address a set of customer(s’) identified competencies they’ve identified? Do your customer come to your organization and ask you “Can you design a set of solutions to help us fix “X” by training our people or by consulting on these topics”?
    I’ve been in consulting and training for 25+ years and rarely do consulting/training organizations actually do something which is recognized as “design”.

    If you can’t see how the requirements from cl 8.3 can be met, you aren’t doing “design”.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2023
    Andy Nichols, Jan 5, 2023
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  8. sunrize

    sunrize Member

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    Yes Mr. Andy

    you are correct we decide to exclude 8.3 for consulting services, but keep it for training

    because some training program specially those courses which is not recognized by another provider

    we need to design course material, course syllabus, define duration ....etc to become able to achieve the desired objective of this course
     
    sunrize, Jan 6, 2023
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  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    What is the scope for this training? "The Design, Development and Delivery of..."?
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 6, 2023
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