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Clause 5.1 Leadership and commitment. Examples?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Oliver, Aug 23, 2017.

  1. Oliver

    Oliver New Member

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    Hello,
    I am trying to implement the new standard and I'm now up to 5.1 and i'm finding it hard to come up with ideas to prove that our company does the points a-j. how do you show that top management takes accountability for the QMS and so on. Any help is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Welcome. It looks like you're trying to do everything. You should be working with your own management to figure this out. It's their job! Maybe going through the standard with them and ask them what they do to demonstrate this. That's going to help you a lot...
     
  3. Oliver

    Oliver New Member

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    Yeah I should have put "we're". Does it mean things like meetings and staff inductions?
     
  4. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    I suppose those are some ways, however, let's try a different view...perhaps you wanted to lose weight. How would you commit to that?

    • Assess current state and determine where you wanted to be
    • Determine the resources you would need to get to that goal
    • Establish processes to help you achieve that goal
    • Regular check-ins to monitor, measure, and action results (especially if you're not on track to reach your goal)

    Management committment towards any Management System (Quality, Environment, Health and Safety, etc.) should take a similar approach.
     
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  5. normzone

    normzone Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this clause is going to be interesting. When I talk with my top management everything they describe that they feel meets this requirement sounds to me more like management and supervision, or command and control, than it does like leadership.

    I may not be the most unbiased source - I've always been frustrated in my search for mentors, and my expectations are perhaps higher than the norm.

    Oh, wait a moment - I AM the norm.
     
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  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    A lot will have to do with the size of your organization. Most of that will occur in strategic planning and/or management review type activities. If your looking for a "show the auditor evidence" maybe a checklist that is reviewed during these activities.

    To me, this is a "bogus" clause fraught with interpretation and implementation issues. It's an attempt to "bully" management into doing what the quality guru's want them to do. They are basically putting lipstick on the pig. The reality is, you don't have to tell good management to do these things.
     
  7. normzone

    normzone Well-Known Member

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    " The reality is, you don't have to tell good management to do these things. "

    So, what if you don't HAVE good management ?
     
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly! How many understand "What gets measured gets managed? Too many instances IME show that even basics like budget don't get measured...
     
  9. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    A standard ain't going to change them. You'll get just enough window dressing to pass an audit.
     
  10. Oliver

    Oliver New Member

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    Thank you everyone. It does seem to me like most good companies do this already its just proving it to an auditor that we're having problems with. I have an issue with how subjective it could all be. I feel one auditor could say you hit every point and another says you don't.
     
  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You'll never answer that point. Auditors are, like all of us, different. It's the wrong focus. You should be working on what your organization does to meet the requirement and there's your answer. If the auditor - any auditor - doesn't like it, show them the door. They are, after all, simply a supplier of certification services. You don't HAVE to use them. You'll find someone you can work with and who understands what you've done.
     
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  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really. You'd be surprised how many organization's leadership don't know how to lead...
     
  13. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    There is one easy way to get a "point in your favour" so to speak, and you won't really find it in the standard...have your management present in the room and actively involved during this portion of an audit. If it's just you in the room and just you doing the speaking, that doesn't really demonstrate their committment.
     
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  14. normzone

    normzone Well-Known Member

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    " A standard ain't going to change them. You'll get just enough window dressing to pass an audit. "

    That can be true. Some persons in authority got there by being assertive, lucky, unscrupulous, or accidents of birth. They may never learn to lead. But if you've dragged them from clueless to understanding that they need to at least provide window dressing, then the old dog has at least learned how to pretend knowing the new trick, and is aware that there IS a new trick. Not entirely a waste of your time. It's great to have an experienced trail horse, but sometimes you need to settle for a one-trick pony.



    " There is one easy way to get a "point in your favour" so to speak, and you won't really find it in the standard...have your management present in the room and actively involved during this portion of an audit. If it's just you in the room and just you doing the speaking, that doesn't really demonstrate their committment. "

    And this also serves to educate your guy at the top, however he got there, that you're not the only person expecting him to have some answers. Sometimes they even begin preparing for audits and improve their methods.
     
  15. SpinDr99

    SpinDr99 Member

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    This is one question I let top management answer themselves.
     

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