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CB Wants to Schedule Two Auditors Onsite for IATF Recertification Audit

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by qmr1976, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    So, we are a small company and do not have the staff to support having two auditors on site at one time. Our CB is stating that since the audit is lengthier than usual because of it being a recertification audit, it requires an additional auditor, which we were fine with if the auditors could split the days up. It's a 4.5 day audit, so I didn't think it would be that difficult. They are telling me that per IATF rules that both auditors have to be on site at the same time at least one day. Is this true or are they just trying to get more money from us? I'm looking through their "Rule" book and I don't see anything that refers to this, unless I'm missing something. We have gone through this run-around with them in the past, and were able to get around it but maybe it's because it was a surveillance audit, instead? I don't know but we are the customer and if we tell them we're not able to support two auditors, then they should accommodate us. Anyone else gone through this scenario and have any suggestions on how to handle the situation? At the moment they are not returning my emails or my phone calls after I told them they would have to find a work-around because we have mentioned several times via phone calls that two auditors on site at the same time would not be feasible.
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    All you have to do is support a 4.5 day audit. My guess is it's a scheduling foo-bar on their end with your "lead" who has to be available for the entire 3 years of certification (at least for part(s) of each audit - that's possibly the rule they're citing). I'd tell them that whatever the reason (I'll check my IATF rules) it's their issue to address and you aren't bound by their rules, in that respect. You have some options for which point in time the audit happens, so tell them to work on a schedule you can support. They potentially have you over a small barrel with the need to get it done, but they've had a year to sort this out! I'd push back - you are paying the bill and they only have one job...
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
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  3. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    Thank you! That's my thought but wanted to get a '2nd opinion', so to speak. I just don't like them dropping this on us at the last minute, which I realize is a strategical move on their part. Hold off as long as possible and then we won't have time to fight back. :(
     
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You can also escalate their lack of planning to the IAOB. If it's one of their "Gold", "Silver" or "Bronze" Certification Bodies (how bizarre) then they may not care much, because it doesn't validate their "grading" and they won't want to lose face...
     
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  5. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    So we are a small company as well (20-25 people). We have had two auditors do certification audits in the past. It's actually not that bad from a support function and tends to get the audit done quicker. If it's a 4.5 man day audit, they should be out of there in 2.5 days. It's all in the scheduling. We would divide them up to certain departments. So, for example, one would handle purchasing and one manufacturing -- with me available to handle any issues which came. Have they given you the audit schedule yet?
     
  6. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    No....that won't be available until the quote has been signed off and we still have yet to receive the quote. That will be my next request once quote is signed. Begin pre-audit planning and then request an agenda. Our client representative finally admitted she goofed. With a 4.5 day audit only one auditor will be required but stated that if head count increases, it could increase the amount of audit days. Anything over 5 days will require an additional auditor. Additional auditors don't concern me. Having them both here on the same day, does and not only because of cost but just the simple fact that I am only one person. I have my hands full with one auditor, let alone two. The expectation is that I stay with the auditor at all times and bring in people to be audited, as needed. Our CB has yet to show me in their rule book where it goes against their rules to have the auditors split the days up. It's not an issue now but it does concern me if we happen to go beyond the 5 day audit time frame.
     
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  7. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Well it's not reasonable to have auditors on different days. They usually come as a team and work the audit till it's done. Why would you want to drag out a two day audit to a whole week. Do you really need to "babysit" your auditees? Drop them off and be available if something comes up. You need a break too, no? I would want to crush my head in a vice if I had to sit in audits for 4+ days straight.
     
  8. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    Not babysit the auditees, so much as making sure the auditor is escorted for safety reasons, as well as we don't want the auditor just wandering through our plant willy nilly. We don't want them wandering into areas outside of the scope of the audit. Plus, procedures are reviewed prior to being audited so it's just easier for me to have them ready to review, since I am responsible for maintaining them anyway. Plus, a lot of our auditees are on the production floor, and although we prep them beforehand, it's good to be present to make them feel a little less intimidated by the auditor.
     
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  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly! These are all the right reasons. I'd be taking up the issue with the CSR's boss. They goofed, they sort it out. Simple.
     
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  10. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    You don't have managers that can do this? For example, when it is time to audit production I give the auditor to my production manager. He takes him thru the shop and identifies any operators and the like they want to talk to. Nobody is wandering around and if my production manager has a question, I am available to answer.
     
  11. Gre19

    Gre19 New Member

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    Hi,

    It’s not clearing in Rules but IATF have instructed oversights and CB:s that ”split audits” are not allowed. Their definition of a split audit is an audit that takes a break ( for example for a weekend).

    If the audit is for more then 5 days you Will need to have 2 auditors on site at the same time.
     
  12. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    I agree...it's not clear. I can't find anything in the rule book about it and our CB still can't show me where it says that. But in our case, it wouldn't be taking a break. It would be in the same week, but would just have a different auditor come in the remaining days. We have it all straightened out, though. It's pretty much a moot point now because our audit is only 4.5 days, so not sure why she was thinking we would need two auditors. Our employee head count would have to increase significantly for us to reach the 5+ audit day time frame. I really do appreciate everyone's feedback though. It was very insightful! :)
     
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  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Knowing a little bit about how CB scheduling works, to tie up an auditor for 4.5 days isn't as beneficial as having them work for 5 days. Many CB auditors don't get paid travel time. If the scheduler can squeeze 2 auditors in and get 2 (or more) different clients audits done and get a full 40 hours of auditing done in a week, that's best (at around $1500/day, the loss of $750 revenue for each similar audit mounts up)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  14. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    Ahhh...yes. I knew money had to be a factor somehow. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2020
  15. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    On a similar thought, I know a company where they have requested a virtual audit and the auditor doesn't want to do that - not their choice! also, despite fewer than 30 days to the audit, there's no audit plan. The auditor says "We'll use last times"... How can an audit plan for a CB surveillance be the same? This is an auditor who has overlooked even basic ISO 9001:2015 things for now 5 years and, despite the company not having a design process, has "design" in their scope.
     
  16. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    I was told by our registrar that an organization has to meet certain criteria to qualify for a virtual audit aka COVID provisions, I believe. If they can't secure an auditor to travel to the facility to perform the audit or if the company was directly affected by COVID. Virtual audits can be a nightmare though. We've been through one for one of our customers and it's just very challenging. When they can't see what's going on out on the floor, you have to stop what you're doing and take pictures of everything and that was just a few elements of the VDA requirements. I can't imagine what a full-blown IATF audit would be like virtually.
     
  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Although it's been discussed, it's not an option I'm aware of. The organization I was referring to, is ISO 9001:2015 certified where it is a popular thing to do. I am dismayed at the lack of customer focus (ironic they don't possess it, but are supposed to audit it)
     
  18. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    Oh yeah that portion of the audit would be totally doable for us virtually, as our non-automotive work is very minimal.
     

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