1. Hello and Welcome to The Quality Forum Online...Continuing in the spirit of People Helping People !
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Are Visual and Feel Gages?

Discussion in 'Gage R&R and MSA - Measurement Systems Analysis' started by Golfman25, Nov 11, 2015.

  1. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    42
    So would you consider a general visual check for damage or a feel for sharp edges a gage requiring an MSA? We aren't talking anything specific like color matching or minor imperfections. Just that a part has no obvious damage and its edges aren't detrimental to safe handling.
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Depends on the "spec". Why are you even doing this check?
     
  3. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Why not? Look at part and if it there are no noticeable flaws and the burrs are all knocked down and not sharp we are good to go. Kind of like checking your UPS package for damage when they drop it off.
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Not exactly. The arrangements with your supplier are somewhat different to using UPS. As a past supply chain manager, I planned to avoid having to look for stuff which shouldn't be present. If you are checking for rough edges/burrs and the spec says "no burrs/rough edges" (or similar), why are you looking for them? If the supplier has been told pack the thing so it doesn't get damaged, why look for damage?
     
  5. Bev D

    Bev D Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    344
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Maine
    They are not "gauges" but they are measurement systems. They are used to assess the product vs some standard, no matter how loose or vaguely defined. In fact because they are human based and the criteria are so vague a well designed MSA can tell you if there is even any point in doing such an 'assessment'. Too often vague subjective assessments are at best a waste of time and at worst a waste of time, money, emotion that results in customer dissatisfaction due to unintended consequences. The assessment may be well intended but its the execution that matters...anything worth doing is worth doing well.
     
  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    42
    So what you seem to be saying is that a general verification may be a waste of time.

    In our case, the burr standard is "not detrimental to safe handling." So it is a quick check during deburing to ensure any sharp edges are knocked down. It is also standard to give a simple check for obvious damage to parts. It's not rocket science, just a simple verification so easy a caveman can do it.
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Not just Bev D said it! If you have a process under control, why are you looking for errors? Shouldn't the process remove sharp edges/burrs? If you are getting them trying to set "acceptance limits" and then hold them is futile, where "feel" is concerned. If you have a machining process which is creating burrs, then change that...
     
  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    42
    I don't know. Why does it have to be so complicated? You punch a part out of steel. Punching leaves a burr/sharp edge - unless you have a bunch of money, that's a certainty of physics. You toss the part into a vibratory deburing machine to round off the sharp edge. You grab the part, feel it, and say yep, good to go - no sharp edge. Why these days are we trying to turn into a NASA project?
     
  9. Somashekar

    Somashekar Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    97
    Trophy Points:
    27
    The verification can be an acceptable criteria for the vibratory deburing machine to set up the parameters, if that is how you define the criteria. For something more detailed (aka rocket science) like a tea taster, who is trained and follows a particular lifestyle to be able to perform with required precision (aka storage and preservation of gage) ... he / she definitely comes closer to a gage. In fact they are treated and managed as one.
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    So you don't have a set time for the machine to run? You don't set a number of hours (or similar) for the medium to be changed out? The operator flips a switch and checks back later, by taking a couple of parts out and feels for a burr? That's how the process is "controlled"?
     
  11. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    42
    I would agree. It's all in the context of the activity.
     
  12. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    42
    You got it. Because we run more than 2500 different parts. Some are thin, some are thick. Some are old tools, some are new. Some are soft material, some are hard. Some are high volume, some are only a few pcs. The equipment isn't new and fancy, but old and functional. Every burr, material, and batch is different. And we are not talking about a specific specification for the burr, i.e.; no more than .001 (that would be measured). Just a requirement that burrs are not sharp and detrimental to safe handling.
     
  13. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    452
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    I don't consider it MSA, I consider it craftsmanship and I see nothing wrong with it if the edge is important to customers, external or internal.
     

Share This Page