Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Are KPI required under ISO9001:2015 or can you show Trend Analyes

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Jacquie Collins66, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. Jacquie Collins66

    Jacquie Collins66 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Great Yarmouth
    Hi apologies if this has been raised before

    from a recent audit - I had to justify this


    missing analysis, measuring, evaluation, evaluation of compliance obligations, reporting etc – Added notes do not include evidence (KPIs, targets etc..)

    I don't have KPIs I have a Trend analysis, I analysis NC, Customer Stratification, Suppliers, Quality, Environmental, HR

    am i right?

    upload_2020-2-11_14-51-13.png
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Jacquie - was the audit internal or external?

    Your question "Are KPIs required" - the aanswer is "No". You must have documented Quality Objectives, which are consistent with the Quality Policy. The objectives should be measurable etc. Do you have Quality Objectives?

    What is the chart related to?
     
  3. Jacquie Collins66

    Jacquie Collins66 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Great Yarmouth
    Andy

    external for ISO9001 and 14001, objective I have with targets, who is responsible and a timeframe if possible.

    it's quite frustrating as I spent 2 days making tea and not being asked questions regarding our quality system, which I know works, I take a simple approach, and try not to over complicate it.
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Did you receive any nonconformities? I'd be inclined, just on the performance of the auditor alone, to make a complaint to the CB and cite the relevant parts of ISO 19011 and request that, as a supplier, they submit their corrective action to you.
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Back to the plot...

    Can I ask you to share your Quality and Environmental policies here? Sanitized, as necessary, of course. Also, what are your quality and environmental objectives? Do you have results you compare, in Management Review for example, of the performance against the objectives? (It would help to know what you do, too).

    If you'd post those things, it'll be clearer if the CB auditor was even awake...
     
  6. Jacquie Collins66

    Jacquie Collins66 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Great Yarmouth
    Hi Andy

    The whole system has only been running since September 2019. when the auditor left it was for a recommendation for certification for ISO9001 ISO14001, when the audit report was sent through to us, we noticed it was more 14001 lead.

    we are a supplier of bulk and fine chemicals, we distribute and have our own storage facilities, we have a Chemist and a DSGA on-site full time. and part of our business is to transport hazardous waste, ( but we are fading this out)
     

    Attached File(s): 1. Scan for viruses before using. 2. Report any 'bad' files by reporting this post. 3. Use at your own Risk.:

  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Thanks for sharing this. Based on this alone, I'm struggling to see some clear quality objectives and environmental targets. I see a long list of things to be done, but many are neither associated with the supply of bulk chemicals (On Time, In Spec) or control/reduction of environmental aspects/impacts.

    Your auditor may have been onto something, but it doesn't come across well - made worse since your organization should have these clearly in place and understood for them to audit. It seems the CB audit went off the rails at the stage 1 last year.

    Can you share your quality and environmental policies?
     
  8. Jacquie Collins66

    Jacquie Collins66 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Great Yarmouth
    Hi Andy

    is this any better?

    or am I completely on the wrong path and have to do a rethink and raise this at the next management meeting.
     

    Attached File(s): 1. Scan for viruses before using. 2. Report any 'bad' files by reporting this post. 3. Use at your own Risk.:

  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Not completely on the wrong path, but some revisting of the way the ISO requirements work might be in order (using the Quality side as an example):

    The Context of the Organization should be understood, and part of this is answering what is the "Scope of the Quality/Environmental Management System. Your scope will be something like;

    "The Warehousing and Distribution of XXX and YYY Chemicals for the A, B & C Industries".

    From this, your Leadership are supposed to establish a Quality (or Environmental) Policy. This should be worded in such a way that Quality objectives can be framed from that policy.

    "Our Quality Policy is to provide our customers with Chemicals which meet their stated requirements for Chemistry & Quantity, Identified and Handled in accordance with applicable regulations, and delivered on schedule..." (type of thing)

    From this, Quality objectives - based on the principles of On-time and In specification can be established for the various processes associated with the scope. Warehousing, for example could have Inventory Turns and Accuracy as 2 objectives and targets set for their achievement. (I couldn't see any evidence of these from what you'd provided).

    The objectives and targets can be set at any level for the main processes, as needed to get confidence in the performance of the business. From this, you can extend the development of the documented Quality System and link to the other requirements. Warehousing relies on accuracy of knowing what you have, in what quantity and where in the building, clear labeling, accurate in/out transactions (computer inputs) and so on, through competent personnel, clean, well maintained buildings. All this can be measured and monitored to keep a balance between being responsive to customer demands and not having too much inventory (particularly if the chemicals are susceptible to aging, environmental degradation etc including "caking" or whatever) since this represents money. Need I go on? The Environmental Policy and Objectives can follow a similar route, through the Aspects and Impacts and plans to reduce them...

    The Management Review will take a look (periodically) at performance. Are we holding sufficient of the chemicals to meet customer demand? Do we turn inventory frequently to avoid caking/contamination/degradation etc?
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
    tony s likes this.
  10. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    216
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Good day @Jacquie Collins66 ;
    I would like to ask why are the metrics you are collecting.... (Trend analysis, NC analysis, Customer satisfaction, etc..etc..) different than KPI (key performance indicators)? Why can't KPI be in the form of the metrics you describe.

    Regardless of the standard (no specific method requirement as stated by @Andy Nichols ) , what are the performance indicators your organizations NEEDS ?

    It sounds to me like your current metrics ARE your key Performance Indicators.

    NOTE: One of MANY definitions of KPI = "a measurable value that demonstrates how effectively a company is achieving key business objectives".

    It's important to note that ISO 9001:2015 never uses the term KPI. Don't get too hung up on specific terms (e.g. KPI).

    Hope this helps.

    Be well.
     
    Leonid and Jacquie Collins66 like this.
  11. Jacquie Collins66

    Jacquie Collins66 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Great Yarmouth
    Thanks John,
    I am going to stick what I have, as my manual clearly states we monitor via objectives or KPIs, we are a company of 15 ppl.
    we buy in chemicals and resell them, I don't see the point in getting too complicated, I think our main problem was with the CB who arrange the auditor and didn't give him the correct standards we were applying for, so the audit was more one-sided for Environmental, luckily our integrated manual cross-reference both standards so not to duplicate, what applies for one applies for the other except in a few sections. plus if he had engaged with us more I would have appreciated feedback on the system.

    This is the second time the system has passed 9001:2015 with no N/Cs so I know its works, it's just the first time I have been audited for 14001

    everything gets logged on our NCCA log and from there we analysis customer satisfaction, Suppliers, transport, H&S, HR, QA issues, Environmental Issues, Logistics, and Hazardous issues, as it's only been up and running since August when I started to write, produce and manage the system to be recommended for ISO9001 and 14001 ( got notification today) and audit and passed with no N/Cs for UFAS I am more than happy the system works for us.

    I a great believer in looking for asking for help, but I am also a believe make it work for your company and don't overcomplicate it.

    Thanks, Andy, your advice was well received but as I didn't really explain too much about our process or business practice. I can see you over judged us on what we already have in place.
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Sorry I wasn't able to assist...
     
  13. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    934
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I'm a bit puzzled by the mixed messaging and fully recognize that we don't have the full picture:

    ...seems to conflict with...

    I realize that your organization is small, but from my own perspective having worked with organizations of all shapes and sizes, is that the connections are missing between the various components. Rather than add to the complexity of your system, it will make it easier for everyone to understand and quickly assess the health of the organization instead of trying to remember what all the activities are supposed to lead to. Looking at your trend analysis, and again, I fully admit that we don't have the full picture nor do I understand your organization's culture, but I cannot look at that pie chart and think "Hey, we're doing awesome!" or "Ugh, we're doing terrible." The pie chart has not context or meaning or drive behind it.

    For ISO 9001, going to presume your Customer Satisfaction is along the lines of improving it...(even though that entire objective/metric combination makes me twitch)...

    Objective | Increase customer satisfaction by 5% by December 31, 2020.

    KPI | Customer satisfaction scores (you'll need both a baseline and the end results)

    Activities | These should be based on the comments or deficient/actionable areas that came out of the baseline - in other words, your activities should directly drive improvement on your KPI results. If the activity does not positively impact the KPI, and by default, the achievement of the Objective, it does not belong on the list.
     
  14. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    934
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    BTW, I'm curious about how the CB informed the auditor of the incorrect standards...and shouldn't this have been caught by someone on your organization's side in the initial communications and/or the opening meeting?
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  15. Leonid

    Leonid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    17
    Location:
    Moscow
    Good day @Jacquie Collins66
    ISO 9001 requires to determine and apply the criteria and methods (including monitoring, measurements and related performance indicators) needed to ensure the effective operation and control of these processes (section 4.4.1 e). ISO 14001 determines enhancement of environmental performance as one of the intended outcomes of an EMS (section 1) and requires for environmental policy to include a commitment to … enhance environmental performance (section 5.2 e). Both standards require to evaluate performance of the management system (section 9.1). The organization shall measure, monitor, analyse and evaluate measured results (metrics) which serve the KPI. The information shall be retained.
     
  16. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    825
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    Reviewing the attachments provided by @Jacquie Collins66 :

    It seems that the Objectives and Targets worksheet contains more of the activities to support the QMS/EMS, instead of measurable objectives.

    The Risk Register doesn't contain risks that are related to environmental aspects for a supplier of bulk and fine chemicals.

    If the Environmental Monitoring Overview is a tool for controlling environmental aspects, the "Objectives & Targets progress, Evaluation of Legal Compliance", etc. should not be included in the first column.​
     
  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    To Tony's point, if we review the Objectives and Targets attachment and consider the ISO 9001 QMS requirements (for products/services) for the scope of warehousing and distribution, there are no mentions of anything related to objectives which are appropriate to those activities in the attachment. If an organization is going to a) store (warehouse) products and b) distribute said products, then if we view that from the customers' perspectives (interested party) what are we interested in?

    1) you have the required product, on hand, in the desired condition (not out of date etc) and not mixed with anything else and it can be delivered when agreed. A warehouse/distribution organization which doesn't consider these as being important isn't going to be in business very long.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020

Share This Page