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Annex A Control Plans

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Golfman25, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Annex A contains a long list of items. Is everyone of those items required? What if they don't really exist? Anyone have a sample of a control plan compliant with Annex A?
     
  2. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    Which particular thing does not exist in your case? For instance, if there isn't any error proofing, no harm having it blank. I do wonder the need for separate error proofing and corrective action column. Skipping some of them have never been a finding during my external audit experience.
     
  3. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I beg to differ. That pert of the Control Plan is very important. For example your control method could be the SPC program or the work instruction. Annex A prescribes it as a "Shall". Once the Control Method was left blank and I had a finding.
     
  4. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Well a couple of things. First Annex A and the APQP book conflict. For example, Annex A refers to reaction plan and corrective action as two bullet points. The APQP book states the "reaction plan specifies the corrective actions necessary . . .", i.e; one int he same.

    Second, what if you have primitive process and have no process characteristics or methods of controlling them, like an old oven with no temp gages?

    Third, what if error proofing isn't always cost effective? Etc.
     
  5. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    That's an auditor discretion. We had a finding because we left the error proofing blank in our Control Plan. Annex A specified "Shall" have it.
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I sincerely hope not!
     
  7. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    We did Andy. I'm telling you the IATF is putting a pressure on the auditors for not issuing nonconformance.
     
  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    But that is different to applying a technique which, an experienced auditor, would realize isn't appropriate.
     
  9. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately our auditor appears to overpower us. And this individual does not like to be challenged.
     
  10. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    What is happening from my experience, is auditors are demanding "best practices" so it is easy to "prove" compliance. It is no longer enough to do what works for your company, they want to see that you do it "like everyone else." Then they don't have to justify anything.
     
  11. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I respect your opinion but I respectfully disagree with what you said.
     
  12. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    So what did you do to show error proofing. I'm having the same issue.
     
  13. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    One way is to monitor the trend of SPC charts.
     
  14. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    So to update. We are still having issues. The CB clarified and told us if something doesn't exist, then it does not need to be included in the control plan. So for example, it is ok to not have special process characteristics if they don't exist. After that, our auditor has really turned the screws on us (on this an other issues). Although we have reviewed our control plans and updated them with process characteristics and explained that due to our tools/equipment we have no special process characteristics, he now wants us to have a "control plan process" wherein we explain the identification and absence of any items. The way I see it, we do -- it's called sit down with the books (TS standard and AIAG manuals) and prepare the control plan. I plan on escalating this, but can he really challenge our expert judgment?
     
  15. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I had a finding once because I left the error proofing blank. If there is a requirement, that's what it is. I suggest you look at the form and if you need guidance look at Annex A.
     
  16. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    I get that. But is there a requirement to have some special process to figure it all out. I get the feeling that they are looking for a folder with a bunch of checklists, projects schedules, approvals, and other papers. That is something that would work for a large company, but we are small. Often the multi disciplinary team is me, myself, and I. :) We don't need a lot of extra paperwork to keep things straight and on schedule. And more importantly, what authority does a CB auditor have to question our judgment on such matters? Who knows more about our "stuff" than us?
     
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  17. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the club whose members are- Me, Myself and I. If you have a Control Plan that is properly linked to your FMEA (you also need a Pre-launch Control Plan)and Flow Chart you should be OK. If for example your Control method say you use SPC (or any work instruction, etc...), then you must produce an objective evidence that you are in compliance, and that these control methods are effective in preventing error. You also need to put the reaction plan in the event that a nonconforming product is produce and the Control method is not effective (write down the specific procedure for controlling non-conforming product and the corrective action procedure-which are all required by TS16949). You should know more about your stuff than any CB auditors who sometimes are in a fog with regards to the interpretation of the standard. And when you have done all these and still get a finding, I suggest that during the closing, you read the requirements of the standard and ask the CB auditor to tell you fall short of meeting the standard. The ELSMAR COVE had a lot of control plans but use the core tools published by AIAG. And if you are not happy with the conclusion, I suggest you utilize the appeal process.
     

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