1. Hello and Welcome to The Quality Forum Online...Continuing in the spirit of People Helping People !
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

7.2 Competence: How much documentation is needed?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by John Apostoli, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. John Apostoli

    John Apostoli New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    In terms of 7.2, d) just wondering what an registration auditor might be looking for in terms of evidence of competence. For example, let's assume we hire to predefined criteria (experience, education, certifications, etc.) and collect records to demonstrate. In-house training is given and at the end of a specific period an overall job performance evaluation is done. The evaluation is simply signed-off on a log adjacent to the persons name and position. Is the signature adequate, or does the record require the criteria for the evaluation and the specific results documented. This could be documented evidence of work samples, witness of work, interviews, work history, etc. How much documentation is needed?
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    We can't tell you what an auditor will ask/look for! Every one is different and some have better understanding than others. Competence is defined as "the demonstrated ability to apply skills and knowledge", so you need to have something recorded to that effect...
     
  3. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    125
    Trophy Points:
    42
    The corollary to Andy's statement is you also need to show NO evidence that somewhere along the line "skills and competence" caused a problem. In other words, if your customer feedback (from NCR's, CARS, or whatever) show that you have recurring issues with welds, you had better check out how you determine competence in the welding department! If you simply depend on a certificate, but the results are not satisfactory, your company has a problem determining competence and is relying on 'unreliable' and unverified data.
     
  4. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    577
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Being the type of person who believes that there are always at least 3 options, I blend the approaches from both Andy and hogheavenfarm. Having resumes and certificates and signed training documents is all well and good, but, let's be honest...we all drive the car according to the law when there is a police car behind us. In other words, we're all on our best behavior during training and follow the procedures/instructor. There is a term for this...can't remember it...but I fully expect Andy to know the term I'm looking for (no pressure!).

    Once training is over and we're in the "real world", things don't always work out the way the procedure is outlined. This is where hogheavenfarm's approach comes in. We analyzed our nonconformances down to the crew (sometimes individual) level - this could be impacted by employee and/or collective agreements. In some cases, formal training was provided. In other cases, one point lessons or process alerts were communicated. In other cases, processes and/or procedures were changed because people were doing things BETTER than we had originally trained them on.

    This may sound like a lot of work, but it does add value in my opinion. Not only did we train to a standardized process, our assessment and analysis led to identifying gaps or slips in competency and, in some cases, process improvement.
     
  5. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    155
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Location:
    Northeast USA
    I'm not Andy, but it is often referred to as the "Hawthorne Effect" or "Observer Effect".
    Werner Heisenberg just got totally left out of it this time...though his "Principle" is sorta similar...
     
    RoxaneB and Atul Khandekar like this.
  6. askartsolutions

    askartsolutions Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2016
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario Canada
    Here is my take on this topic. Clause 7.2 requires:
    1. PLAN - Determine competency requirements which your organization should determine far better than any external auditor.
    2. DO - Determine the effectiveness of competency through demonstration or other means.
    3. CHECK - If employee performance (through resulting n/c's and other evidence) fails to meet established product and competency requirements,
    4. ACT - then remedial actions must be taken.
    5. So the "documented information" required would be a) competency criteria as established by your org; b) performance data on the activity or process that the the employee is engaged in (e.g production records); c) evidence of remedial training or reassigment, etc for non-competent performance.
    6. Always keep the PDCA cycle in mind in developing your QMS.
     
  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    7.2c requires evaluation of the effectiveness of the actions taken. If we dissect "effectiveness" it has two parts: planned results that must be achieved AND planned activities that must be realized. So if we are to evaluate effectiveness, we have to be clear of the "planned results" in providing the necessary action/s or intervention/s to address competency needs. Documenting the evidence of reviewing whether the "planned results" are achieved after provision of the necessary action/intervention (i.e. planned activities) will satisfy the documented information requirement on 7.2c.
     
  8. askartsolutions

    askartsolutions Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2016
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Mississauga, Ontario Canada
    If an employee is not sufficiently competent as required by clause 7.2a and b, then clause 7.2.c calls for remedial actions (perhaps refresher training or reassignment) to be taken to bring that employee up to speed or find someone else who can to do QMS work effectively. Whatever remedial course of action is taken, (in this case the refresher training or assigning another competent employee), it must be evaluated for effectiveness in terms of achieving QMS performance requirements. The remedial course of action and its effectiveness must be documented.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    This is why, IMHO, the requirement for competency and not simply training is so good. Organizations can waste a lot of money "training" without any useful goal in mind - I've personally witnessed a requirement to fulfil 40 hours training annually and people have gone to the same 40 hr course 2 and 3 times. What a waste...
     
  10. dibdab

    dibdab Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Bear in mind the need for ongoing checking to confirm that eyesight etc. has not deteriorated and that measuring equipment, comparative standards continue to be accurately used
     
    Jennifer Kirley likes this.

Share This Page