The training of TS16949 internal auditors - What are the requirements?

Thanks to all for giving their views. Now am looking for when the Plexus starts their workshop for Lead Auditor.

 

Last year one of our facility was dinged because the auditor was not trained to audit to the TS16949 standard. This auditor IS a CQE auditor which is one of our employee. We reasoned out that she has shadowed me during the TS Internal Audit but we still got a nonconformance. So they hired one of the CB trainer to conduct the training on-site. That's how the problem was fixed.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe your CB cannot do training on-site, because that is considered consulting.

 

Not necessarily. Most CB's have a training arm - which is different from the certifying body. According to them, theyopen their training to public and the training is focus on the standard not customized.

 

The second statement doesn't contradict the first statement.

Anyway, ISO 17021 defines management system consultancy as "participation in designing, implementing or maintaining a management system" and under a Note clarifies that "Arranging training and participating as a trainer is not considered consultancy, provided that, where the course relates to management systems or auditing, it is confined to the provision of generic information that is freely available in the public domain; i.e. the trainer should not provide company-specific solutions".

The following statements in ISO 17021 is prohibitive to CBs who extend consultancy services:

• Auditing the management systems of a client to whom the certification body provided management systems consultancy would be a self-review threat.
• The certification body and any part of the same legal entity shall not offer or provide management system consultancy.
• The certification body shall not certify a management system on which a client has received management system consultancy or internal audits, where the relationship between the consultancy organization and the certification body poses an unacceptable threat to the impartiality of the certification body.
• The certification body shall not outsource audits to a management system consultancy organization, as this poses an unacceptable threat to the impartiality of the certification body.
• The certification body's activities shall not be marketed or offered as linked with the activities of an organization that provides management system consultancy.
• A certification body shall not state or imply that certification would be simpler, easier, faster or less expensive if a specified consultancy organization were used.
• To ensure that there is no conflict of interests, personnel who have provided management system consultancy, including those acting in a managerial capacity, shall not be used by the certification body to take part in an audit or other certification activities if they have been involved in management system consultancy towards the client in question within two years following the end of the consultancy.

ISO 17021 is the standard specifying the requirements for bodies providing audit and certification of management systems.

 

thanks for your reply!

 

Apparently (according to the SGS ISO TS 16949 v2016 webinar) the internal auditor qualification requirements will be tightened up, to be more prescriptive like the Ford & GM internal auditor qualifications in their CSRs. However we will have to wait until the new version is officially publihsed in December to find out exactly.

 

I'm crossing my fingers that ISO/TS should leave the "prescriptive" requirements to OEMs' "customer-specific requirements".

 

Not really. CB's have training department that is independent of auditing. I do not see any conflict there.

 

I agree with that.

 

CBs who offered training on-site run the risk of going against the statements below:

 

I have raised this concern but since the CB trainer is not the CB certifier, that seems to be OK.

 

I'm just wondering if it's OK with their accreditation body. If the ISO 17021 is a standard that CBs must demonstrate conformance, isn't it they are violating the requirements that prohibit them to offer consulting services (i.e. CB trainer that provides company-specific solutions)?

 

The training is very generic. CB trainers do not offer customized consultation during class. I learned more from this website than in the classroom training. But we need a certificate to provide objective evidence so there it is.

 

If a CB trainer do an on-site training, he/she will be exposed to questions specific to the operation of the trainees. Limiting the answers on a generic tone defeats the purpose of a company on having a training done on their site. My assumption is the printed training materials are generic but verbal discussion are, more or less, specific.