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NC - IATF 4.3

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Raghavan, May 1, 2023.

  1. Raghavan

    Raghavan Member

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    Hi guys,

    As I got minor NC for not showing remote support location for IT support. As our corporate provide us IT support.( before corporate third party was providing support ) So we got a NC not included in the Scope. As when i spoke to Auditor he may audit the corporate for Remote location. as its in different country, we feel it can expensive for us.

    Can we ask our IT guy to visit our site while auditing?? ( just include Remote location in our scope )

    Do you guys have any other approach to this situation which can be cost effective.
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Can you give us the exact wording of the NC? Personally, I can’t see why 4.3 has any relevance
     
  3. Raghavan

    Raghavan Member

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    This is as per IATF rule 5th Edition requirement of 6.5.2 . Also IT function (Training, Simulation and backup files ) which is managed through Corporate as Remote Support Location function is also not included in the scope of QMS system

    Standard Clause 4.3 - Determining the scope of the Quality Management system.
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Is this how the non-conformity was written?

    The "scope" of the QMS is nothing to do with which departments are "in" or "out" of the QMS. I fear your CB auditor is incompetent in this manner. The "scope", as required by IATF and ISO 9001 is to "state the types of products and services covered, and provide justification for any requirements..." etc. It doesn't require any functions within the organization to be stated as part of the scope - so 4.3 isn't applicable.

    I am not sure a non-conformity can be issued against the "rules".
     
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  5. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    I would say be careful not to confuse certificate scope with the scope of the QMS as identified in 4.3.1. 4.3.1 specifically requires supporting functions be included in the QMS -- i.e.; subject to audit -- Obvious issue being some support functions are offsite. I think that's where the auditor is going.
     
  6. Raghavan

    Raghavan Member

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    ATF 16949 Section 4 (formerly sections 1.1 & 1.2):

    Supporting functions, whether on-site or remote (such as design centers, corporate headquarters, and distribution centers), shall be included in the scope of the Quality Management System (QMS).

    Yes, We didn't include in our QMS scope as RSL for IT. so i include in our Scope, Will Auditor Audit our RSL ? any solutions??
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    For clarification:

    There's the requirement for a scope statement describing the products and services which (result from the QMS. This is a 4.3 requirement. Typically, it will be something like "The design and manufacture of widgets" or "Precision machining of components to customer specifications", or along those lines. That may, or may not, be included in the scope of certification. That's an entirely different kettle of wax.

    If there's a part of the organization which should be included in the QMS, in the OP's case, to provide a supporting process/activity, then it's up to the organization to decide if they are "in" the QMS. A key question is whether the CB auditor determined that the IT activities were being provided in support of product being delivered and hence were not described in the QMS (or worse, not being provided to the detriment of meeting customer requirements etc).

    IT IS NOT FOR THE CB TO SIMPLY DECIDE A FUNCTION IS/IS NOT INCLUDED THE QMS.

    As for the wording of IATF 16949 (or any dubious application of the 5th Edition Rules), firstly is there an SI or FAQ on the topic? We must not forget that the authors of IATF 16949 do NOT have an appropriate grasp on ISO 9001:2015 requirements and adding remote locations etc in the "scope" doesn't mean a scope statement, necessarily.

    I'd be pushing this one back to the CB for clarification...
     
  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    What is your "old" scope and your "new" scope?
     
  9. Raghavan

    Raghavan Member

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    Our old scope is Precision slitting of steel and blanking.

    as per auditor i should add RSL - IT.

    I asked my Auditor to give better clarification.

    as per SI

    The certification body shall enter the information about each audited support function (i.e. audited location name, audit dates, auditor name(s) and audit days for each auditor) in the comment field under a manufacturing site’s audit. If a remote support function supports more than one manufacturing site, the certification body shall enter the audit information under a single manufacturing site. The information shall be in the specified format, in English.

    thanks for reply, highly appreciated
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    What? This is silly. What the CB does in processing information to the 5th Edition Rules, has ZERO to do with your scope.

    Reject the finding to the CB management as it's ridiculous.
     
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  11. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Sounds like you’re a steel service center? Any specific reason you’re dealing with IATF? Do you supply direct to the “big three?” Haven’t seen many certified to IATF and your scope is pretty standard. I have a hard time even thinking how IT is all that relevant. While I know they can’t “consult” some guidance would certainly be helpful.
     
  12. Raghavan

    Raghavan Member

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    Yes we are supplier for one of the big three, So IATF IS mandatory. Some ODD days. just frustrating. maybe we are contesting the finding lets see.
     
  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Did the auditor propose a new scope? How is it planned to be worded?

    "Precision slitting of steel and blanking with IT as a remote site location"?
     
  14. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    So my opinion would be that IT is not applicable to your QMS, much like accounting. It's there to support your business, but not your system. It's not like an offsite design department or offsite "top management" that are integrated into your QMS. Good luck with your challenge.
     
  15. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The flaw in such an approach is this: ISO 9001 specifically mentions "Infrastructure" and then makes a note which includes "information and communication technology". Nowhere does it mention "finance". You, of course know this.

    The dilemma is that hapless, incompetent auditors such as the one which is writing this NC don't posses the ability to critically think through such issues... I agree, however with this: