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Justifying and Interpreting NC’s

Discussion in 'AS 91XX - Aerospace Quality Standards' started by ISO9001TD, Jul 31, 2022.

  1. ISO9001TD

    ISO9001TD Member

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    We are having a problem of process owners pushing back and questioning our internal audit NC findings. They often disagree with our findings and get hostile.

    How can we better justify and interpret our findings?
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You don’t!
    What is the root cause of them pushing back?
     
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you involve them in the planning of the audits? Do you select audit scopes and audit criteria they know and hence understand? Are the audit findings pointed out to them during the audit, so they can see the facts for themselves?
     
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  4. ISO9001TD

    ISO9001TD Member

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    What are the main reasons why pushback occurs? Is it: perception of personal failure, lack of awareness, lack of understanding, or a bit of both?
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    None of the above. Did you make the audit useful by doing the things I asked?
     
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  6. ISO9001TD

    ISO9001TD Member

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    Can you clarify what you mean by “useful”?
     
  7. ISO9001TD

    ISO9001TD Member

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    Another question: if we encounter other quality managers who think they have more knowledge than us and think something is confirming rather than nonconforming, what ammo do we need to have to back up our NC finding? Would that be solid evidence??
     
  8. ISO9001TD

    ISO9001TD Member

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    Should we also state the risk and impact if the NC is not resolved to better help those who pushback understand?
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you really need me to answer this? In all seriousness? Go and ask the managers what keeps them from a good night’s sleep. What concerns them about their process, people, results.
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe they do. Why do you need “ammo”? Why are you fighting people internally? What makes you right? Why is an NC accurate - because you wrote it?
     
  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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  12. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    As an internal auditor I used to be delighted when a process manager would argue an NC. I loved to hear what they have to say - let's discuss quality - they knew the process far better than I did.

    Have you listened to what they have to say? Here's the thing: they don't know all that much about ISO, so I agree with Andy to avoid the jargon. What practice is in the interest of the customer? What, if anything, is contrary to procedure?
     
  13. Enghabashy

    Enghabashy Member

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    one of answer :
    *1st stage : 1- elect all process owners & top managers to activate their training ; all of you should receive audit course according ISO 9001, 14001 requirements & management system auditing; guidance of ISO 19011 ; 2-the program should cover case study for participating all stuff with dividing them in groups for each case study ,3- final exam for all& certified auditor & certificate for who passing the exam

    *2nd stage after activate the course / auditing requirements & information : all managers stuff who received the awareness should be involved in company audit programs to maintain their level as more active & more matured by effective implementation
     
  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    It’s never going to happen.
     
  15. BradM

    BradM Moderator Staff Member

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    How many stars are in the sky?

    There could be hundreds of reasons for pushback... poor writeups, lack of understanding, lack of management support, unrealistic deadlines, auditors getting overly diligent in writeups, insufficient resources, lack of job clarity, conflicting objectives....

    Saying all that... specifically what does the pushback look like?
     
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