Internal Audit - Training Required?

That would be an excellent time for a dispute of the finding. Such a point should be properly and consistently understood and applied within the CB's auditors and technical reviewers (final approvers of the audit process outputs for certification). Raising such a finding would provide the CB with a chance to realize this kind of variation exists and address it.

 

Very true, Jennifer. However, few clients will do this. I've seen more clients stunned by the nature of the finding (s) of their audits and since many don't get to hear until the closing meeting, it can't be refuted because, logistically, it becomes a nightmare. It takes time to process things and it takes a MR who is really on their game to be "on" erroneous findings to push back...

 

I am not aware of a nightmare with disputes, because I am very careful to receive acknowledgement at time of closing. Ideally the MR would have enough awareness to know what is right, and does not need to feel like a weathervane in this process. What I know is that this right could, if properly done, help all three: the client, the auditor and the CB. So it is regrettable that so few exercise this right to dispute, especially given what you have described. Can you help them with the process?

 

It's difficult, Jennifer. As you're aware, the presence of a consultant, on site, during an audit is often taken as horribly wrong by auditors. For my parts, when I was a CB auditor, I was "shadowed" by a consultant and it (eventually) got back to me they thought I was good at what I did (just as well, because the client's QMS was crap and the CEO was dismissed for financial fraud). In the QS9000 days rules prevented participation of consultants.

 

ISO 17021 still forbids active participation of consultants but permits them to observe. Our rules are clear on that. Can help the client after the auditor has left?

 

MR = Management Representative, that is the person to whom Top Management is delegating specific Quality Management System and certification-related tasks. It is not required in ISO 9001:2015 but many organizations are keeping theirs.

 

Yes the consultant can assist after the audit is over; a good consultant will have awareness of how the certification process works, and could help you through the process of closing nonconformities if any result from the audit.

The object is to make the organization self sufficient. A good consultant will "work himself out of a job" by helping you learn enough that you no longer need his/her services.

 

There's a limit to controls CB auditors. We can be retrained, counseled and fired. Those things happen after the faux pas.

Well, the CB has the right to disinvite the consultant in a certification/surveillance audit... thank you for this, it could help our readers to be aware.

 

From my (personal) knowledge of how certain CBs operate, Tony, it would make your hair curl how they go about hiring auditors...