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Internal Audit Hints and Tips

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Andy Nichols, Nov 8, 2024.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I have created the first in a series of tips and hints to assist internal auditors as a supplement to the ineffective training they may have received - like only doing compliance to “ISO” requirements, instead of what actually works effectively.
    These are tips gained from my 50 years in a wide variety of functions and industries and not something I was told in a “Lead Auditor” training course.
    They can be found at my page on LinkedIn, here https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/inte...qi-ws97c/?trackingId=itPbbtYlRy6Jcfaax0BSVQ==

    Feedback is always welcome!
     
    John C. Abnet likes this.
  2. yodon

    yodon Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, thanks.

    It might not hurt to take a step back. I think everyone now expects a "process based" audit, but how does an auditor determine the processes to consider. Purchasing, for example, is a "process" but I think the intent of the process based approach is to consider from identification of need to purchase (which is potentially spread across multiple groups) through, I suppose, acceptance of the purchased materials and all the sub-processes that go with it (e.g., re the purchasing records properly controls (Document and Record Control), do the players involved from beginning to end have sufficient competence [which leads possibly to training and additional records], etc.).

    Frequently, I see an auditor ask for a couple of POs and confirms that the materials are received. Check, Purchasing Process done. That's not going to be an effective audit.

    The Purchasing process (conceptually) is a good example. Purchasing, say, a software application to support design and development (e.g., Jira for issue tracking) is quite different from purchasing raw material (that requires unquestionable traceability) and purchasing an outsourced service introduces more differences. If I don't look at both, I might not see gaps in one.

    Frankly, I often struggle with determining what the (right) processes are to ensure the broadest coverage, but I think, conceptually, I take the right approach. Most instructional guides start, where you did, with the assumption that the auditor knows what the processes are. Maybe I'm overthinking but some tips along those lines might be helpful.
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Do they? I haven't seen an actual requirement to do process based internal audits. Even ISO 19011 isn't clear on it. I've never had an external auditor ever question when I did a clause based internal audit, oddly... IATF 16949 requires the "automotive process approach", but it's not defined for internal auditors anywhere.

    I'd suggest that's a question for audit program management, not an auditor. I'd like to be facetious and suggest that they should have been taught that in "Lead Auditor" training, but I know they aren't...

    Are you describing an internal auditor? If so, it's what they are taught.

    That's because I'm not writing a guide for how to manage an audit program. It's chicken and egg, really. For 35 years, we've taught people how to do a very basic audit (using the wrong model, but that's another story), probably based on only 1 criterion (ISO 9001) and then abandoned them to their own devices.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2024
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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