1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

DFMEA for automotive OEM

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Matt D, Feb 4, 2025.

  1. Matt D

    Matt D New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2025
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hello,

    Greetings everyone. New poster here.

    I work in R+D of composites company in the UK, who a currently working with a large auto OEM. We are hoping to replace fire retardant mica panels inside the battery pack of a new electric vehicle.

    In preparation for getting IATF/VDA accreditation, I have been asked to do DFMEA.

    However, I have some confusion as to how much design responsibility, and the scope of the DFMEA, I can provide.
    The shape of the part, and the battery is the OEMs. The requirements for various attributes, like dielectric strength, thermal resistance, flexural strength, water uptake etc. have all been specified by the customer.
    Effectively, the design has come from them, I have just turned it in to reality.

    I have reformulated our SMC material, and most of these attributes are now met (further testing being performed by customer to confirm).
    Without know why these attributes were set the way they were, what can be put down as the effect of any failure to meet these attributes?
    Any thoughts from people would be most appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Matt
     
  2. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    531
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Upper Midwest- USA
    Good day Matt, and welcome to the site.

    Please help us understand. I am confused by the statement..."In preparation for getting IATF/VDA accreditation, I have been asked to do DFMEA"
    - Each of these items are mostly autonomous (save any CSR, etc...).
    - Is your organization seeking IATF 16949 certification?
    - Which element of VDA are you speaking of ?
    - If your organization is not design responsible, why is your organization discussion DFMEA "to do" ?

    Thanks in advance for helping us help you.
     
  3. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    549
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Greater Milwaukee USA
    This looks like you have shared design responsibility. The customer has designed the geometry, but you have designed the material formulation to meet customer requirements.
    Focus the DFMEA on the design aspects that you controlled, for example, if you formulated the material incorrectly and it fails to meet the dielectric strength or the thermal resistance, there would be failure modes and effects. What kind of design controls to you have in place to detect these prior to design release?
     
  4. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    531
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Upper Midwest- USA
    Not sure that this is what @Matt D is stating Miner. It sounds to me like ALL performance, size, shape parameters are determined by the customer. I believe all @Matt D 's organization is doing is the formulating the material to meet those design parameters..i.e. @Matt D 's actions are process and not product design related.

    Is my understanding correct @Matt D ?

    Thanks in advance for helping us understand.
     
    Andy Nichols likes this.
  5. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    549
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Greater Milwaukee USA
    I respectfully disagree with you on that. He is in a classic gray-box design scenario that is very common in automotive. My entire automotive experience was with gray-box designs.
    • White box design - OEM is 100% design responsible
    • Gray box design - OEM and Tier 1 share design responsibility
    • Black box design - Tier 1 is 100% design responsible
    We made vibration isolation products (e.g., engine mounts, rear suspension links, bushings, etc.). The OEM would specify the dimensional envelope and the vibration requirements while we designed the weldments and formulated the rubber properties.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2025
    John C. Abnet likes this.
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,354
    Likes Received:
    2,658
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Welcome Matt D!

    Along with @John C. Abnet's questions, Matt D, can I ask "who asked"?
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,354
    Likes Received:
    2,658
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Matt, one point of clarification, because I'm super-sensitive to this type of comment...

    I hope you mean pull a team together and not simply you fill out the DFMEA form for submission. Yes, it can be just a few functions who are in the "core team", but you must NOT take on the task by yourself. Also, if you haven't done one before, get some help from someone who has! Doing an FMEA isn't an exercise is dreaming up failure modes and the effects "if Hell freezes over". It should be based on your best guess and knowledge. So, if the material hardens with temperature and becomes brittle, for example, then it is what it is. No need to build a case for every eventuality.
     
  8. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    531
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Upper Midwest- USA
    Likewise. Many of my years were with first tier automotive seating. We actually had a 'sister' company that was a design house (design even in the name). Some of our plant team, including myself were involved in the design review and approval process. Our drawings were created by our sister company...sent the the OEM, who simply accepted them...transcribed them onto their own OEM drawings...and issued same to our plant. Our plant simply manufactured to that "OEM" issued drawing. Thus, we had no design responsibility...and certification reflected same. The term "shared responsibility" can be applied or misapplied to any one numerous and often nuanced scenarios.


    Be well.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,354
    Likes Received:
    2,658
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    We need to ascertain if Matt's org can change a specification, without customer approval. If they can, they are design responsible. If not...
     
  10. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    531
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Upper Midwest- USA
    Exactly
     
  11. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    549
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Greater Milwaukee USA
    It's not that clear cut. As I said, we worked with gray box designs. We definitely could not change the customer's dimensional specs or vibration requirements. We COULD change other design aspects, BUT we had to inform the customer that we were doing so and submit a new PPAP (just like any other change). Even if you were 100% design responsible, no automotive customer is going to allow you to make a change without informing them and submitting a PPAP.
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,354
    Likes Received:
    2,658
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Yes, there’s often exceptions to the rule, but it’s a good place to start. Many organizations have their intellectual property to protect.