1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Auditor Cites Wrong Clause for Non-conformance

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Golfman25, Mar 25, 2023.

Page 2 of 2
  1. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,350
    Likes Received:
    1,055
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    From the perspective and language of the CB auditor? Hmmm. Because the OP mentioned this: "I know for a fact that they know the answer, because they are ultra concerned about meeting it."

    According to @Golfman25: the previous auditor, "as long as he got the gist from the auditees", was fine with the responses. Maybe the question "Should we increase awareness of goals and targets?" from the perspective and language of the organization/auditees should be asked from the auditors.
     
    tony s, Apr 7, 2023
    #21
  2. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Don't even talk to me about the POS CB. Boy have they gone down hill. I asked 3-4 times for appeal procedures, and got answers to a whole lot of different questions I didn't ask. I had to google around to get the forms/procedures. Time for a change that's for sure.
     
    Golfman25, Apr 7, 2023
    #22
    Jennifer Kirley and Andy Nichols like this.
  3. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    62
    So the real answer is a bit of "coaching" the day prior to the audit. I could train them again today, and by the time the audit rolled around maybe they would remember "the answer."

    In reviewing the issue, I challenged my purchasing manager -- what is the quality policy and what are your metrics? He actually does the calculations on his metrics, and he struggled to answer the question completely as he forgot "rejections" (because they are rare). It took him a few minutes to collect his thoughts and figure it out. Now take that down to the shop floor, being "interrogated" by someone they don't know, and it's completely understandable they would flub it.
     
    Golfman25, Apr 7, 2023
    #23
    tony s and Andy Nichols like this.
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Yes, indeed, they would. This all comes down to some basics that the CB industry must face up to. They don’t know how to deliver effective audits. Hence, they “buy” low cost auditors, so they can charge “tolerable” audit fees. One day, something will happen to jerk this complacency to a halt. Sadly, my recent experience with an AB tells me they are no better…
     
    Andy Nichols, Apr 7, 2023
    #24
  5. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,071
    Likes Received:
    722
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    USA
    It sure does sound like time for a change. I don't remember how many of the auditees sampled did not know the answer to this question, but I still say I have very little patience for raising nonconformities over something like this because
    1) Many times the metrics are not easy to understand;
    2) Auditees really do get stage fright - all the time;
    3) This is a low-value issue to be picking on.

    You can coach them, but the best way to handle it would be to have the information - updated to current achievement status - right there for them to point to.

    Equally problematic is the runaround you got when asking how to file a dispute. That is something that is supposed to be included in the opening and closing meetings. In general, the first step is likely Customer Service. I certainly hope they were not among those giving you the runaround...

    This guy sounds like a dud to me - maybe he can improve but he just doesn't sound ready to me. I would file a complaint.
     
    Jennifer Kirley, Apr 8, 2023
    #25
    tony s, BradM and Andy Nichols like this.
  6. BradM

    BradM Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    316
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Arlington, TX
    This is a really great post and response, Jennifer. We old quality salts have been fighting lack of management support for years. How does it help the cause when upper management sees N/C's and problems like this? Seriously?

    I know I'm naïve in this viewpoint. But... it really would be OK if an auditor did a thorough audit and left with no N/C's. Some people work their tails off to make sure their organization is ready. They shouldn't be punished with silly findings simply for the sake of having findings.
     
    BradM, Apr 10, 2023
    #26
    tony s and Andy Nichols like this.
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    See post #24, Brad! After 35 years in and around the 3rd Party industry, the train is well off the tracks. What you describe won't return until there's some kind of cathartic event which makes them all take stock of the lack luster results they deliver.
     
    Andy Nichols, Apr 10, 2023
    #27
    BradM likes this.
  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    62
    This is a good point. As top management there is nothing that angers me more than non-substantive findings. It's work for for work's state and destroys the credibility of your system. It gives the "see I told you so's" ground to stand on and continue their resistance. It sucks.
     
    Golfman25, Apr 10, 2023
    #28
    BradM likes this.
  9. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,071
    Likes Received:
    722
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    USA
    I get frustrated too because it invites people to think we are all like that. Not so. If I am not seeing it systemically and can't identify a practical "so what" for my finding, it strongly hints it's a time for an OFI or even just a verbal comment and then move on to more important things.
     
    Jennifer Kirley, Apr 11, 2023
    #29
    tony s and BradM like this.
  10. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Seems to me there are two types. Those on a power trip -- Mr. Gottcha. And those genuinely trying to help. I was looking over my past auditor's reports. He never looked like he was putting in the "effort." But gosh darn it, they where incredibly comprehensive, sampled lots of evidence, etc. Was kind of nice to see vs. what I am dealing with now.
     
    Golfman25, Apr 11, 2023
    #30
  11. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,071
    Likes Received:
    722
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    USA
    I suspect it is ego OR they are simply inexperienced and insecure, think they need to raise every little thing whereas the rest of us are looking at the effectiveness of the system.

    And then, some people simply are misplaced. Auditing is not for everyone.
     
    Jennifer Kirley, Apr 12, 2023
    #31
Page 2 of 2