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8.4.2.3 - Supplier Quality Management system Development

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Ing.Eli, Aug 27, 2024.

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  1. Ing.Eli

    Ing.Eli Member

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    We have a minor NC because we have suppliers that produce a product that does not go into the part only assist in making the part such Tooling or similar. Will be enough if we just evaluate the supplier internally or we need to switch that suppliers for suppliers that has ISO 9001 or IATF?

    Any thoughts would be gratefully received.
     
    Ing.Eli, Aug 27, 2024
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  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Appeal the finding! The auditor is WRONG!
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 27, 2024
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  3. Ing.Eli

    Ing.Eli Member

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    My concern to appeal the NC is that according to Auditor comments even if I appeal or not I need to answer the NC so, I'm trying to find an action plan for this NC.. :(
     
    Ing.Eli, Aug 27, 2024
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Once again, your auditor is WRONG! Why would anyone try to fix an inaccurate audit non-conformity. Not only should you appeal the nc but you should tell your CAB that you do NOT want the auditor back, based on their obvious incompetence. Trust me, if you don't, you will have to feed that monster.
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 27, 2024
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  5. Ing.Eli

    Ing.Eli Member

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    We will request to change the auditor; that is part of our plan, not just for this NC also because the way that we did the audit was not the best (attitude, comments, etc..) Thank you for your feedback!
     
    Ing.Eli, Aug 27, 2024
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    We are here to help! Let us know how it works out! Good luck
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 27, 2024
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  7. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    This sounds like it would fall into an MRO (Maintenance, Repairs and Operations) category, which includes minor tooling and consumables. Normally, MRO suppliers are not required to be certified nor audited. You should make your decision based on risk to the quality of the product. What has been your experience with this supplier? Can their product cause quality issues with your product?
     
    Miner, Aug 27, 2024
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    An interesting point! Those of us old enough to remember will be familiar with the "TE 9000" supplement which appeared shortly after QS-9000 arrived on the scene for automotive suppliers.

    That crashed and burned.
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 27, 2024
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  9. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Well-Known Member

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    When you get a chance, can you share with us the specific section of the clause they sited for this NC? Ultimately, you define what type of control is placed on your suppliers. My only guess is if your procedure didn't clarify that maybe that's your response to the auditor. The problem with a lot of these findings is the standard is very vague and leaves it open for interpretation on both sides!
     
    qmr1976, Aug 28, 2024
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  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't really agree with such statements, for these reasons: It's the job of the organization to determine the application of the requirements (ISO 9001, IATF 16949, AS9100D etc) and then the job of the CAB auditor to evaluate the implementation. CAB auditors are NOT "interpreters" of requirements. If they do, that means they have lost their objectivity or impartiality and, as a result, we see floods of such posts pleading for help. Even IF the OP's QMS stated that tooling suppliers were required to be developed, ISO 9001 and IATF 16949 requirements apply to those sources which are incorporated in the resulting product - the auditor should know that - and, clearly, a supplier of drills, reamers, work holding devices etc DON'T do that!
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2024
    Andy Nichols, Aug 28, 2024
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  11. Ing.Eli

    Ing.Eli Member

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    It could affect the product; due to those are molds and tooling plastic injections..
     
    Ing.Eli, Aug 28, 2024
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  12. Ing.Eli

    Ing.Eli Member

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    The clause is 8.4.2.3 - Supplier Quality Management System Development; that's correct we didn't define in our internal procedures what is the process to follow for those suppliers; we have a process for supplier that supply raw material, logistic items, packaging, sorts, reworks but not tooling.
     
    Ing.Eli, Aug 28, 2024
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  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really. It's no different to a supplier of a drill, or end mill. They are not responsible for where you put the hole or machine the feature. You run a moulding process and if you miss the melt temp, or overheat the mould or fail to condition the raw polymer for moisture, then you can't blame that on the tool maker!
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 28, 2024
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  14. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    You need to look at the sanctioned interpretations which modified the standard. Unless authorized by your customer, suppliers need to be ISO 9001 at a minimum.

    However, it only applies to suppliers of automotive products and services. Arguably tooling isn’t included in that definition. I agree with the appeal.

    Your auditors line about still having to answer the NC is misleading. What they really meant was the appeal doesn’t stop the time to answer the NC, so if your appeal is denied you may miss your submission deadline to answer the NC.
     
    Golfman25, Aug 29, 2024
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  15. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    In automotive, permanent tooling such as a mold typically requires a PPAP but the provider of said tooling can be addressed separately from the providers of production materials.
     
    Miner, Aug 29, 2024
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