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3x5 Why Analysis- Determining Systemic Root Cause

Discussion in '5S, 5Why, 8D, TRIZ, SIPOC, RCA, Shainin Methods...' started by Pongsakorn, Mar 3, 2016.

  1. Pongsakorn

    Pongsakorn Active Member

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    3x5 Why Analysis is really a good tool to determine the root cause up to "Systemic" level in order to
    determine the action to prevent the problem from happening.
    However, it is really hard to determine "System Root Cause", please share if anyone has a good training material or good example for 3x5 Why Analysis.
     
    Pongsakorn, Mar 3, 2016
    #1
  2. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    I admit that I have never heard of 3x5 Why. 5Why is the term I'm more familiar with. What is 3x5 Why?
     
    RoxaneB, Mar 3, 2016
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  3. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    The Systemic root cause may come from either or both of the Problem and/or the Escape root causes.

    An example from the problem root cause might be in the usage of a lower grade fastener than was specified in the design. The systemic root cause might lie in the sourcing practices from a fastener distributor that did not make the requirements clear.

    An example from the escape root cause where the characteristic was not measured might be the lack of a system that uses PFMEAs to identify significant factors that should be controlled. Or if the escape was due to an out of calibration gage, the systemic cause might be in the calibration program.

    RoxaneB: the 3x refers to performing a 5 Why for each of the following: 1) Why the problem occurred; 2) Why the problem escaped to the customer: 3) Why the system allowed 1) and/or 2) to occur.
     
    Miner, Mar 3, 2016
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  4. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    here is an example:
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2016
    hogheavenfarm, Mar 3, 2016
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  5. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Definetely, is not better than using the fishbone tool,while 5w normally considers one way of analysis,the fishbone considers several ways e.g.man machine,method,material,etc.
    Hope this helps.
     
    Qualmx, Mar 6, 2016
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  6. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    This looks like the Apollo Root Cause Analysis that Delphi uses.
     
    MCW8888, Mar 6, 2016
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  7. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    Only on the surface. While true that Apollo disputes the concept of a single root cause, the Apollo method is more complex. It considers that each step of the causal change is the result of both an action and a condition. An example that they use for a fire is Action: a match is struck; Condition: oily rags and oxygen are present. Without the condition being present, the action would have no effect.
     
    Miner, Mar 7, 2016
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  8. Bev D

    Bev D Moderator Staff Member

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    yes
    - as I remember several of the larger companies talked about Apollo but often only implemented the addition of systemic and escape causes. They didn't include the whole condition interaction concept...
     
    Bev D, Mar 7, 2016
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  9. Bev D

    Bev D Moderator Staff Member

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    Qualmax - I'm curious as to why you think the 5 why (or 3X5 Why) only considers 'one way of analysis' where the fishbone covers many...what is your definition of 'way of analysis'?
     
    Bev D, Mar 7, 2016
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  10. QMSmaster

    QMSmaster Active Member

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    Hog...do you have an example of a completed 3x5?
     
    QMSmaster, Mar 7, 2016
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  11. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Bev
    What I mean it is that 5w is not a good idea to analyse a problem if it is taken only one way.
    In 5w, many people normally start answering based on only one source and finish when there is not more answers, but dont involve other sources. E.g. if the source was the operator, than, the root cause finishes with a training to operator, or improving his competence.
    But have not considered the material, the method,the measurement,etc.
    It is advisible to use it but in each possible source.
    I hope now is clear.
     
    Qualmx, Mar 7, 2016
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  12. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    There is a very interesting methodology which considers the whole problem, several aspects of a problem.
    www.taproot.com
     
    Qualmx, Mar 7, 2016
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  13. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    I have one somewhere, I will find it and clean it up to post an example.
    I liked it as it forced the root cause to be "reanalyzed" in light of different aspects. Example, while the RC may have been primarily outdated work instructions on the floor, the next run (second run thru) will target cultural issues (among others) in how the issue was allowed to happen, the third pass concentrates on a broader picture - how to prevent a recurrence (systemic issues). I have used it a few times, but most of our customers require 8-D, so this was reserved for internal defects or small run products where the customer did not specify a particular root cause treatment.
     
    hogheavenfarm, Mar 7, 2016
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  14. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    Keep in mind that the purpose of a fishbone diagram is different than of a 5 Why or Apollo. A fishbone diagram is structured brainstorming. The goal is to identify all potential causes for a specific effect. A 5 Why is not brainstorming. It is intended to be supported at every step of the 5 Whys by evidence that supports the fact that it actually occurred. This is documentation of evidence, not brainstorming.
     
    Miner, Mar 7, 2016
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  15. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    "In 5w, many people normally start answering based on only one source and finish when there is not more answers, but dont involve other sources."

    This is why these tools should be used in a cross functional team setting. Different aspects are represented throughout the process. Far too often it is up to the "quality guy" to pursue these.
     
    hogheavenfarm, Mar 8, 2016
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  16. José Martin 0000

    José Martin 0000 New Member

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    I normally use the fishbone analysis and then I dive deeper with 5why analysis for the most possible hypothesis, what do you think about it?
     
    José Martin 0000, Oct 14, 2017
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  17. José Martin 0000

    José Martin 0000 New Member

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    Agree!
     
    José Martin 0000, Oct 14, 2017
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